Date: Thu May 17, 2001 4:20 pm

The first SWII I had surveyed well call Boat A

I looked for the typical compression post rot and sure enough found it to be present. The cause for the rot was different than most. The boat had an inspection hole for the bottom of the post and setting water could be monitored and removed. The rotting moisture came from up above. The mast step on deck was leaking. The top of the compression post was rotted as well as the cross beam. This was the only boat I saw this on and the surveyor warned me that it was a serious problem. It seems that both the compression post and the cross beam are supporting the mast compression loads. The top of the head door jamb showed evidence of sag as well. The whole area of wood needed to be replaced. A marine carpenter estimated about 40 hours of work and about $800 of material would be needed. The total cost estimate was $8,000 and I worried that the finish would not be the same as original. The woodworking was so extensive I could not attempt it myself. The deck became suspect as well since the core around the mast was probably wet and rotting as well. The sounding was inconclusive since the sound changes as you get to the mast anyway.

The same boat also had a dual head stay. This sounds like a good idea at first but the surveyor found that the head sails had excessive wear where the sail rubbed against the extra head stay. The sails needed work to prevent further wear and possible failure under load.

The engine was painted white by the owner. It is not clear why but it worried the surveyor enough to recommended a diesel survey before purchase.

The rub rails had telltale RTV sealant added at many points. To me this indicated a possible leak in the toe rail.

Finally the holding tank was (illegally ) bypassed. It sits under the vee berth and I suspect it must have leaked. Most people would just leave the Y-valve in the overboard position.

Needless to say I passed on this boat.

Date: Fri May 18, 2001 1:44 am

Thanks for Boat A, and good detective work.

1. I worry enough about the mast step to check each year the deck for moisture, around it and the bowsprit and my two electric windlasses, so far without mishap, at the time I check underbody for same.

2. I have a cross beam and noticed some bending once (through a slight pull out of the upper part of the door jam aft of the 3-doors post under it) after the Yard tuned the mast too tight. This disappeared after releasing the stays a bit, and has not reappeared, and the mast does not bend unduly. I do my own tuning and many other things now that retirement gives me some time.

3. I still have only an awkward inspection 6' porthole in the head/lieu sole. I have not yet cut out as planned after reading about the Bowmar hatch cover, because I'd like the dimensions to allow for such a cover, and I have not found in any of my Buyers' Guides or manufacturers websites any standard cover, from Bowmar or other, that is not much too large, even the 7"x14".


3. The dual headstay chafing problem is the reason why I prefer the sloop rig, and yet fitted a removable headstay with hanked-on sails (8 oz yankee and 10 oz storm jib) instead of a permanent 2nd roller furler (besides cost). As described earlier, that stay is not parallel to the headstay, but from a foot below the mast to the stem (through a slot in the bowsprit), avoiding flying backstays. I padded the forward edge of the spreaders so that the stay, stored on one of the side chainplates, does not eat up that edge when rubbing against it. For the lower connection, I used the cheap Dutch Sliphoek from a Belgian shipchandler mentioned by Practical Sailor, which works very well, but there are sta-lock and other solutions.

4. The holding tank story is scary. Should we test our holding tank regularly without overstressing it? and by what mean?

5. By the way, I just changed my sink from the original 12" depth to a new one 6.5" deep (with same footprint) from the Lewis Marine Group. The old one was always filling with seawater, or smelling horribly if the valve installed 3 years ago was kept closed, requiring frequent aggressive cleaning which corroded two drain fittings, and now one corner of the old sink. At last we can hope to keep things dry in it at sea or in harbor, and yet flush it regularly with clean water and clean things in it. I have not yet found a tight drain cover as an additional precaution, any idea for the standard "3.5" large drain fitting"?

Date: Wed May 30, 2001 1:25 pm
We just had an insurance survey completed on our vessel and a few surprises showed up. 1. The surveyor wants all AC electrical outlets to be upgraded to GFI type, regardless of location. 2. Present ACV market value $41,189.00 3. Replacement value $152,291.00 4. Attach 9 volt smoke alarm to cabin overhead (alarm already aboard) 5. Install "electric shock warning decal" at shore power receptacle area stating "hazardous voltage will cause severe injury or death". 6. Installation of theft alarm suggested. 7. Installation of high water bilge alarm suggested. 8. Install warning sticker on exterior transom surface adjacent to boarding ladder/platform stating "Do not board while engine running". We have decals on the boat now, such as : USPS inspection decal Oil placard near engine US customs annual decal Right of way rules decal Marpol decal for trash dumping Zero tolerance USCG decal

Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 6:37 am

1. surveyor seems to have a love for alarms, a CO might make more sense than a smoke alarm, hard to miss in such a confined space, when CO is non-odorous. I have one but not set it yet, would if I was cruising Maine with some heater on board. And why not "hazardous voltage" decals on each of our home plugs??? and who is going to hear your theft alarm if you are not onboard... unless you prefer crowded places! Besides, if accidently triggered by a bird or a bug (as so often happens in NY suburbs), what a way to flatten your batteries for no good purpose...

High bilge water alarm makes sense, but I have been awaken by the red flash of "Auto" which is one yard away from my head and reflects on the spare compass globe that is at my feet on the head bulkhead (so that I may check routing while in bed... and also as a spare compass in case the main gives up: it froze for a full day just between Flores and Horta AZ, never since, may be it was its way to dekink after the big storm! and no problems since...), which makes it visible from the helm.

2. Market and replacement values seem compatible with my 65K/172/K right after my upgrading in Spring 99.

Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 6:20 am
Did a sea trial and survey Sat. for PickPocket hull#14 (Ketch rig) Looks like by Wed. I will be it's new owner (Curator). I have been following yours and others correspondence concerning refurbishing, maintenance and general issues about these vessels and have found this invaluable in evaluating PickPocket. I want to Thank you and all on this list for the great detailed Info provided here and on the Allied web page. The Survey did not prove any surprises. The worst of it I guess would be to replace the "cutless" bearing soon. There was no noticeable vibration there under way but on the haulout some play was evident. The Westerbeke 4/91 did have a little rust where the oil cooler was mounted to it. The surveyor said to just clean up and repaint before it gets worse. Under way it didn't leak there or anywhere else for that matter. All the standing rigging was 1/4'' and 5/16'' for the main mast fore and backstays with a mix of swaged and staylok fittings. The chain plates show no signs of crevice corrosion. There is a leak in the aft cabin top hatch. The lexan here is a little thin but still OK with no cracks. Just needs rebedding. The broker suggested I use 3200 or 4200 here. Does 3200 attack lexan? Hull to deck jt. is solid and dry, no sign of having ever leaked. The 3-burner Seward LP stove uses the spin-on bottles witch are stored in a non vented compartment below. The surveyor said this is acceptable as long as the bottles weren't left attached when not in use. The previous owner stored the bottles in a bag tied to the "mizzen" mast. I think I'll build a teak box on the cabin top just forward of the main mast for this and use 10lb alum. bottles. Building a vented box in a cockpit locker looks to be ungainly and may limit access to more vital systems. Haul out went well, no blisters at all on the hull; owner said an Interlux epoxy barrier was applied eight years ago over the gelcoat. A few small surface blisters on the rudder. About one seasons bottom paint left. Pressure washed everything, I swear the boat picked up a Knot on the way back. I had all the zincs replaced on my nickel, the owner just wanted to replace the bullet zinc on the prop shaft after it fell off into the surveyors hand when he turned it. The knot meter paddle wheel is toast; all gummed up with grass. I could replace it in the water but I think that thru hull could be better utilized. Besides the GPS gives an accurate enough reading. I guess for differential readings to determine ocean current speed and strength I should repair it (and resale). It does have a mizzen staysail that has not been used buy this owner. The 155 Genoa has a sacrificial strip and looks to be in good condition. The roller furling unit is what was on the boat 1976 (a non ball bearing unit, Frencer I think is what he called it) but was removed when the headstay was replaced. I would guess from the age of the unit, even though it is in good shape, I should retire it and install a Harken or (recommend) RF. The boat has a newer Hurth transmission 1990, a newly installed 2000gpm bilge pump, however no float switch because there is no on board charging sys. or 115VAC. The holding tank can be pumped over board by setting the Y valve and opening a seacock under the vanity. This way all waste is pumped into the holding tank then thru a macerating manual diaphragm pump to either shore pumpout or overboard. Surveyor says this is legal and a pretty good system . This one has not been used yet. The shower in the head is disconnected and after reading about all the grief in this e-mail list about rotted compression post this is very welcome indeed. Too bad the anchor locker wasn't drained overboard instead of past the post into the bilge. The engine performed great, little gray/white smoke at start-up then clear. Water temp held well under high strain. On the trip back from the yard we set-up all the sails on deck only to have to lash them to the boom and pulpit when the squalls came running thru. I now know how shallow Lake Pontchatrane kicks up with winds of 25-35 knots. We got drenched. It had been threatening all day. We didn't get to raise sails but I saw how the boat rocks to heavy weather a-beam, not scary but enough to make you pay attention! The auto pilot performed flawless throughout this ordeal. The Allied Company slogan for this boat "It will cross an ocean if you will" is true but you might have to hang on a little while doing so. Have many great digital close-up photos (100+) of Pickpocket taken during survey and on the hard. Most are .5 to 1mb jpegs. I haven't seen any attachments on this list but if there is a view anyone needs send your e-mail address and I'll pass them on.

Date: Sat Sep 22, 2001 10:45 am

Besides the usual inspection/survey, you may wish to check all the stays in detail, at least inspect the bottom swages (bending the wire a little at that point when detached is a revealing test) and pass a toilet paper wrap on the wire itself. Finally, if you have to replace the mizzen stays, make sure you upgrade to the Gilmer-specified 1/4" which was downgraded by Allied in many of our boats. Note also that Don/Brenda had corrosion in the upper swages, but they seem to be the only ones. They protect their lower swages with special shoes, and I have learned from another owner to spray SP-40 regularly on the top part of these lower swages as well as on the lifeline thread connections.

Date: Mon Oct 8, 2001 10:15 am

It seems like some of you have gone through surveys in recent years. How
about listing the negatives. I didn't even think about my compression post
until it became a topic of discussion in this group. I'd like to make sure
that if and when my boat has to be surveyed that I don't get bit. It's also
nice to know that there are no problems when I'm sailing.

Date: Mon Oct 8, 2001 10:08 pm

My survey turned up mostly cosmetic, some electrical, and few mechanical deficiencies other than outdated Coast Guard req'd equip't.

-The Bowman alum hatch over the salon leaks; this area was sound when I first viewed PickPocket but I guess the Broker traffic on deck disturbed the hatch and Lexan bedding.

-Gelcoat blistering on deck along bullworks and cockpit combing fillets; Owner said boat was stored with standing water on deck under oak trees, clogged scuppers; After chipping and grinding this out, found the laminate had not been compromised.

- Interior clean-up and refinish; varnish and cushions have seen much traffic and abuse.

-No automatic float switch on bilge pump.

-Single hose clamp found on the flex hose between the shaft log and the packing block on the rudder log; should be double clamped.

-Spreader boots missing

- Cotter pin/ ring missing from turnbuckle on the headstay.

- Fuel vent fitting was highly corroded.

- Horizon speed indicator impeller was fouled.

- Zincs needed replacement; prop shaft bullet, rudder log, heat exchanger pencil zinc.

-Shower stall plumbing was disconnected; this was a plus in my book considering the ''Comp Post'' issue.

-Cutlass bearing has some play, may need replacing.

Caution: Be sure the surveyor checks the head!

Mine didn't. Have a Jacabasco 99$ unit. The Wet/Dry bowl valve almost always seems to be cracked on these!

He viewed the system for compliance but didn't pump it thru.

For me this was as bad as it got. Nothing here I wouldn't tackle myself.

There were many more Plusses and recently installed or replaced ABYC compliant major systems.

Just afew quarts of Cetol, laminating resin and Gelcoat, and bruised knees and elbows will bring PickPocket back to Salty shape.

Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 10:06 pm

Daybreak 122k in CT had rot in the cross beam outer layer. The cross beam has three 1" layers. I chose not to buy it because the quotes to fix and replace the cross bean were around $7,000. I worried that the end grain of the post was subject to rot as well. Subsequent survey drilled the suspect areas and found the rot to be superficial and the post to be ok. Somebody got a great deal on a solid, lightly used boat with beautiful real interior and moulded in Propane tank lockers for $34,900!

Wing in RI: Rip McEldowney says "No question Wing is a project boat. The final price was $25,000, but they
put $6,000 in new gear last year (full batten mizzen, cruising spinnaker with stuffer, dodger, sail covers, hot water heater and pressure system, Mercury
2.5hp). You are right about the cost to replace the floor and steering brace if I contract it out, but I plan to do it myself. Materials should be under
$600. Other projects include repairing the compression post, installing a new shower basin and sump pump, resealing hull to deck joint and leaky deck
fittings, auto pilot, windlass, etc. I think I can make her near perfect for $10,000 and that is cheaper than any other Seawind I looked at over the past
3 years. It is going to be a lot of work, but I enjoy it and I will know every inch of her by next year."

I surveyed wing my self and decided that $28,000 was too much and I did not have the time to spend on supervising the repairs. The compression post was not accessible but I suspect it was rotted as was the entire cabin sole. It is how ever a great opportunity to remove the sole, fix the sins and have a great boat with lots of equipment. There must be many deck leaks as the shelves were rotted in the head, Starboard lockers and galley shelves.

The steering brace deserves special mention

The rack and pinion steering mounts on a brace which sits on an angle to horizontal. Water pools along the brace in all cases. In wing the water went onto the brace and it was rotted thru. You could squeeze the brace between your fingers and see water oozing out. The lesson for all of us is to provide a drain for the water and add sealing paint or epoxy to prevent ingress of water. Although the brace is glassed, I think all will eventually take in water. I have not don this to Flicka yet but it is high on my future to do list.