Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:57am

I'm considering adding a wind vane steering system to my Seawind II (Voyager, hull 57, located in Baltimore). Have any of you done this? I'm concerned about interference with the mizzen boom... as well as cost, of course.

Date: Tue Nov 30, 1999 8:48 pm

We installed a Monitor wind vane about 4 years ago or more, time flies when your having fun!  It has saved our lives on one occasion when it was simply to dangerous to remain in the cockpit, we were pitching 30 degrees riding up over waves and heeling to 70 degrees for 14 hours in the Gulf of Mexico during a "bomb" as meteorologists called it.  Another vessel less than 30 miles west of us "maydayed" and were picked up by a large ship loosing their vessel to the sea.  So as you may imagine, we are sold on the Monitor, its all stainless, built for the sea, looks great and I would suggest that you look around for a used one, new they run around 3K,  I believe.  The installation is not difficult , can be done by yourself and the company that supports the unit will sell parts or even upgrade it as engineering developments occur.  Scanmar Marine in California, ask for Scott, or when we return from the West Indies, we'll be glad to assist you in every way.

Date: Wed Dec 1, 1999 3:17 pm

    I'm glad to have the recent e-mails about self-steering vanes.  I'm shoppng around for the right one, too.  Spirit is a cutter, so the mizzen isn't a problem, but she has Edson pedestal steering, mounted where the ketch's mizzen is stepped, rather than aft-mounted rack and pinon wheel steering.
    Now, my question is this.  I've heard that servo-pendulum self-steering is most effective in conjunction with a tiller and that these systems lose power badly when led through lines and blocks and clutches to a wheel--especially, to chain and cable wheel steering like I have.  Critics who take this line say I'd be better off with auxiliary rudder self-steering (like Hydrovane) than with servo-pendulums (like Monitor). Further, they say it's no good to rig the servo-pendulum to the emergency tiller since, unless you disconnect the cable steering system entirely, the self-steering unit still has to work against the friction of the wheel steering system.
    What luck have people had with servo-pundulum/wheel combinations, and what are folks' oppinions on this issue?  Whatever I do--servo- or auxilliary rudder--it's gong to be expensive, so I want to be careful. 
    Thanks for any feed back.

Date: Wed Dec 1, 1999 7:11 am
.

One of the first modifications we made to NIRVANA was to raise the mizzen boom so Tim could stand under it. When we installed our wind vane, we raised the boom another foot. Yes, you must recut the mizzen sail. However, until we could afford new sails we used the mizzen with one reef.

We had a MONITOR wind vane. We loved it. We used her in heavy winds and in light winds. It took a while to fine tune the installation and many hours of practice but it was worth it. We never could have crossed the Atlantic without it. Not only is the equipment good, the company has excellent after sale support. In 1994 when we were ready to leave Georgetown's harbor for Cuba we discovered that we were missing a part of the wind vane. It was the pin that locks the rudder down. MONITOR not only sent us a new pin at their expense but they took full blame for a possible quality control failure by one of their suppliers. This, in spite of the fact that we told them we had inspected the MONITOR the previous day and all was well; that we think someone took the pin.

And, having a wind vane lets you do things like this. On our return trip from Europe we were boarded by the US Coast Guard at 0200 as we approached USVI. I was on watch. We had heavy following seas and winds. We were using our 120 genoa and the wind vane. The Coast Guard personnel had difficulty boarding from their inflatable to our cockpit because of the wave heights. They had to time their step onto NIRVANA from the top of a wave. As soon as they came on board I made a big production of moving away from the wheel and never going back to it the entire time they were on board. Several of the personnel stayed in the cockpit because they told me they would get seasick in "the closed environment of such a small boat". One of them was "green" just being in the cockpit. There were many questions about the handling of a sailboat in the conditions we were in. I will confess to not being able to resist telling them the following winds were a "transportation enhancement". They were very nervous about the fact that no one was at the helm even after I explained about the wind vane. Tim and I felt it was "payback" for coming upon us at 0200 out of the dark and throwing a spotlight on us. Of course, we did not have the radio on until I woke Tim up (he had just gone off watch). So, they may have been trying to hail us but it did scare the s--t out of me and I enjoyed making them uncomfortable. 

I must add that the Coast Guard personnel were very courteous and professional in their manner. I don't know if I would have the nerve to step onto a strange boat in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean.

We receive the digest version of this mailing list so I also have seen Don's letter. We second everything he says. Tim says to say, "It is worth every penny".  He also reminds me that we carried the spares kit and a spare wind vane. We had the MONITOR for many years (as Don says, time flies when you are having fun) we never had a problem; never used any of the spare parts.

Date: Tue Jun 27, 2000 11:09 am

I believe I also followed your earlier, enthusiastic report on the Monitor in an issue of the SW newsletter.  Spirit has a wheel steering pedestal where the ketch's mizzen mast is stepped.  The Edson steering is chain and cable and there's a fair amount of non-negotiable friction in the system, to which cockpit lines and a wheel clutch would add, and then there's that big rudder. . .  Knowledgeable folks have suggested I look for auxiliary rudder gear, rather than servo-pendulums, to by-pass the main steering system entirely and do away with cockpit control lines (Sailomat's super-duper is much to big).  I've looked at Hydrovanes ($$$!) and also one-offs from a respected local vane guy.  But maybe I should just forget this approach and go for a Monitor, as I started ou to do?  (I've used Aires on other boats and don't like them much, though there are a lot around, cheap.)  More feedback welcomed.
 

Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 5:47 am

Windvane-autopilot: I have unshipped my Windhunter windvane-autopilot-entrained generator system (trying hard to recover the money, more on that one of these days), and fitting a Cape Horn windvane plus a small Autohelm 1000+ tied to the "oar" as a cheap back up to my Autohelm 4000+.

I should have results late this Spring, but I have tested the Cape Horn with a friend on his Swan 42 late fall and it works, besides being lighter and more elegant than Monitor-Aries or Windpilot (and I believe, cheaper), plus Yves Gelinas, the Quebec inventor, is a delight, and comes to install and test with you!

Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 2:44 pm

Yves Gelinas tells me you are interested in a Cape Horn. As you may have read on the SWII website, I am installing one, the Jean-du-Sud style (a friend of mine has installed the next size up "Spray" on his Swan 42 last October with good test results before wintering, on my suggestion he investigate the Cape Horn family, and he was hooked).

If you know any details on the Windhunter people, I would appreciate them, including their bankruptcy judge coordinates if they finally went into bankruptcy. They have not acknowledged my renewed requests for reimbursement since almost a year, by email, fax or phone.

The installation went fine, and took a day and a half. Yves worked ceaselessly despite the cold, and I was his helper. He stayed at our home to limit expenses and exchange life philosophies with Barbara and me. He took the tower back to Montreal to shorten it some, as it was interfering with the mizzen, and shipped the modified tower 2 days later. He expects the new tower to arrive mid-next week.

Without the tower, the installation is barely noticeable, contrary to most windvanes that look like oil platforms cantilevering out of transoms. That was part of the appeal of Windhunter, but it is just too complicated, with the wrongest materials and design details!

Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 4:07 pm

Autopilot, I remember meeting in nearby Oyster Bay a Seawind II owner very satisfied on his NY-Florida crossings by his Robertson hydraulic autopilot, the Cadillac of autopilots. The problem is cost and electrical consumption.

I would currently avoid any British product as the experience on this side of the Atlantic is negative on just about every mechanical-electrical product. My Windhunter was a catastrophy from all points and they are bankrupt or quasi-so. Most cruisers I met abroad had, or were to instal, the German Windpilot... or a Cape Horn for the fewer who knew about it, and like its aesthetics. Hence my decision to recommend to my friends that they look at both. I hope to soon narrow that to Cape Horn alone, once I have sufficient experience.

My Autohelm 4000+ was chewing belts and bearings before I disconnected the Windhunter hydarulic ram, it has been satisfactory on the Long island sound since, but not tested in heavy weather downwind with swells. I am installing a $400 Autopilot 1000+ on the Cape Horn steering oar, as back up, and you may consider this as your basic autopilot for a start.

The Autohelm 3000 with exterior belt and a much larger motor than 4000+ may no longer be offered. It has a good reputation and may be found second hand in several cruising meccas, eg, Horta, or on the net. However, I did not pursue because of the cluttering of the cockpit combined with our inclined wheel, and the lack of immediate availability. I went for 4000+ because it was available in Ponta Delgada, San Miguel AZ.

I am watching my Autohelm 4000+, and the fact that I am spending 400+$ for a back up gives the limits of my trust. The most common complaints I heard in cruisers' meccas deal with autopilots, refrigeration, and heads in that order. Redundancy is a must for autopilots, I and my one crew had enough of the slavery of the helm for some 8000 NMiles...

Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 8:39 pm

In 1999 I started with an Autohelm 4000. This steered from Baltimore to Bermuda and thence to Antigua very well, on all points of sail. We never hand steered. But by arrival in Antigua the belt was shot. Later, sailing through the islands, the plastic ring assembly came apart. I purchased another, new autohelm 4000 as a spare. On the return leg to Bermuda the first failed completely - again, the plastic ring that mounts on the wheel is a joke and the little wheels inside break off. The spare steered back here, but was hurting.

I sent both units back to Autohelm/Raytheon for repair and felt was treated quite fairly. In 2000, from here to Nassau and back, again both failed in the same manner but I managed to keep them going so did very little steering.

A friend stuck a Ctrek unit on his Bristol 40. $4000 for the unit. It consumes 6 amps on the same Baltimore to Nassau trip and back in 2000, compared with around an amp for the 4000.

So, this year I've added an old Sailomat wind vane, and am re-engineering one of the 4000 units. I put a 10" gear on the steering shaft under the access hatch, and built a gear and clutch assembly, not yet installed. The 4000 motor drives this, and the unit has the same gear ratio as the belt did on the original unit. The 4000 compass and electronics all control it.

My idea is that this is all under the hatch so is much drier, and the only failure points have been the belt (now gone) and the silly plastic ring around the helm (replaced by the gears). I'm leaving the spare 4000 (repaired) on the wheel as backup.

The unit isn't quite done... but I'll give all a full report in August after the test sail (Baltimore to Bermuda to Turks& Caicos and direct back).

It sure is a fun project, though!

The Sailomat is the older unit that does not connect to the boat's wheel; it has it's own external rudder. I like the redundancy of that. Test sails on the Chesapeake Bay have been successful, but that means little. Again - a full report in August.

Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 8:23 pm

Very ingenious! Sketches or drawings or scanned pictures or a combination would be wonderful when you can find the time, besides the experience, but you are certainly on the right track.

Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:18 pm

Cape Horn Windvane: I just cruised for 10 days to Newport for a wedding and back, and am most satisfied with the new Cape Horn "Jean du Sud", which worked without fine tuning in speeds above 2.5kts and apparent winds above 5 kts, quite a feat. It was impeccable in my max wind of 25 kts, and a friend has had great results in following winds of 35-40kts with commensurate seas on the way to Maryland.

4. Inside Flying Forestay: I noticed after a violent and drenching thunderstorm that my genoa suncover was showing a couple of tears,probably from age (I learned that dacron lasts only 3 years, especially with tropical exposure as I had, compared to much more resistant sunbrella). It was simple to set the inside forestay which is parked on a stanchion base by the starboard top stay, with the old hanked on working jib. To better balance the boat and help the windvane, I took a reef in the mizzen.

5. Kitchen Sink: I have replaced the dismal 12" deep sink that constantly filled with seawater and finally rotted, with a 6.5" sink of the same foot print (I only had to alter two of the stud holes in the counter top). Now I almost never have to close the valve, except on a tight starboard tack up wind. Lewis Group has such a sink on the catalog. Another advantage is a better slope of the drain hose, so no more rotten eggs smell. Cooks and dishwashers, and all crew indeed, will be happier.

6. Museum of Yachting in Fort Adams, Newport has a wonderful small harbor with 7' at the 4 floating docks which circle its with ample truning room. I was welcome there as a paying guest when I mentioned the "classic" character of my Seawind. I had time to visit the Museum which is charming, and has a whole loft devoted to solo sailors doing "first" across the Atlantic and the globe. It is very informative and aesthetic, but does not have anything on Alan Eddy taking the first plastic fiberglass (Seawind I) around the world. Is there a local SW owner who would like to pursue the matter? The reception desk said it could be of interest and the website is moy.org.

Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 10:54 am

 
Perhaps you'd also be interested in this year's wind vane experiences. My 
round trip from Baltimore to Bermuda to TCI and back covered 3000 ocean 
miles in June and July so was a good shake down.

Some background: Voyager came with an Autohelm 4000. 3 yrs ago I sailed 
with this from Baltimore to Bermuda and then to Antigua. The 4000 barely 
made it. I had a girlfriend who visited bring in a new 4000. Now after 
about 8000 miles with two of these I think they are junk.

First, the belt must be replaced often - about once a week at sea. $55 each 
at West Marine. But once you do that the unit is never the same. The 
engagement lever will flip itself to the unengaged position. I use shock 
cord to keep it engaged, but that's one more annoying thing to do whenever 
turning the A/P on.

Second, the unit has about 6 wheels inside that keep the two halves 
together. These break off. Glue works for a while. I finally thru-bolted 
these on with #10 bolts, and the units work much, much better and more 
reliably. But.... two 4000s are good for one summer (3000 miles) of 
sailing. Then both need to be rebuilt.

The electronics units and motors, so far, have been fine.

Anyway, I looked at putting a Monitor on but wasn't too thrilled with 
running lines all over the cockpit. I found an old 601 Sailomat at Ocean 
Outfitters in Annapolis (a marine junk shop - a must-visit for people near 
Maryland) for $250. The unit's main shaft was seized and it had a number of 
other problems. This is the older design, not made anymore, that uses a 
servo-pendulum oar to control its own external rudder. There is no 
connection to the wheel, and if you lost your main rudder, can still steer 
with this.

A 50 ton press at a machine shop freed the main shaft. Much other work was 
required to rebuild the thing. However, it's works perfectly. Better than 
imagined.

With the  4000s I run the boat slow - never more than 6 knots as they can't 
handle things much faster. With the vane the faster the boat goes the 
happier she it. I came on deck one morning and found us doing 8 knots 
through the water. At first I was alarmed and started to reduce sail... but 
then realized she was happy as a clam, steering fine, no water on deck, 
nothing really out of control. I went back to bed.

The vane does follow the wind, so requires attention out of the trades. 10 
degree windshifts are too little for me to sense but the unit does, so the 
course will change.

And it does not work when there's no wind and you're powering. So an 
autopilot is still essential. Still, I'm totally thrilled with the unit.

It's hanging on the stern, like most are. It's a strong point, though, so 
the kids can use it for a handhold when climbing up the ladder.

Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Allied_Seawind_II] Wind Vane and Autohelm 4000 report

Jack,

Glad to see you're happy with the sail-omat!  I frequently inform friends
that the two best items I've ever purchased are the Monitor steering vane
and my radar.

The Monitor saved our lives one in a Gulf of Mexico storm that forced us
to retreat to the safety of the cabin for over 14 hours with water coming
over the decks in volumes.  A vessel west of us maydayed and was rescued
by a ship but gave up their vessel.  The Monitor steered the entire time
as the winds just screemed in the rigging.  The weather boys called it a
"bomb" which is a nice term for 24 hour Gale or Storm condition.

Our autopilot is a CPT which was purchased by the people who make the
Monitor.  We have two units aboard in case one fails but now after using
it for some 10 years have been happy with it in settled conditions.  If
the winds blowing over 8 knots the Monitor takes over and in strong winds
only the Monitor can really do the job, I'm of the opinion that
autopilots are not up to the job in the really rough stuff.  Would anyone
care to comment?

Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:05 am

Windvane: Around offshore cruising circles last year, I heard that Windpilot and Monitor are the best values, but most regretted the mini-oil platform on their transom and the cabling running all over the aft space, plus the chafe. My own experience with Windhunter was catastrophic in economics and performance. They bankrupted before reimbursing me!

Cape Horn intrigued me, and an Englishman working on a classic boat of his own on the hard in St.Martin swore it is the only aesthetic windvane with strong performance. We all have a classic boat, so I contacted Yves Gelinas, owner-designer at www.Capehorn.com. I have now a windvane which works in apparent winds of 5kts and speeds of 2.5-3kts (for the steering oar to grip), and fits easily under my mizzen boom (raised by 14" at the mast foot, rather than raising the boom and reducing the sail area). Oar stows up easily. Yves Gelinas travels from Quebec to your boat to install, and overall economics are very favorable. Yves has a wonderful, prize-showered video on his trip around the world on an Alberg 30, similar to our own, during which he fine-tuned the design in the Roaring Forties.

Another advantage is that you can install a low cost, low-amp Autohelm 1000+ inside the lazarette attached to the Cape Horn actuator which will do the work of a 5000+ at 1/10th of the cost and the amps. As a main autopilot, or a back up of an existing autopilot (cruisers always groan about their autopilot's reliability and need for back up...), this is hard to beat.

Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:34 am

Many cruisers offshore or not, will rely on their windvane whenever possible, and the autopilot only when under power or at night close to shore, before you unship your Hydrovane

Date: Sat Sep 22, 2001 9:34 am

I may have written earlier that I have a Hydro-Vane steerer that came with the boat. It is in truly great condition and had actually offered it up for sale a few months back but I admit that I have read much about the inherent simplicity of the Saye's Rig and may wish to investigate something a bit lighter and simpler to eliminate that dreaded weight aft problem. The new Raytheon ST 5000 sail pilot is expected to do most of the work except for the lengthy offshore legs I anticipate where electrical consumption may be best conserved.

Date: Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:05 pm


I am not quite at the stage of autopilots or wind vane installation, but I 
thought I would glean as much info. as I could ahead of time.  Would be 
better to have a moderately powerful autopilot such as the ST4000 combined 
with a windvane to cover a variety of sheltered water and offshore uses, or 
to get a stronger (and more expensive) autopilot that uses a mechanical or 
hydraulic actuator under the deck?

Date: Fri Oct 12, 2001 8:35 pm

The wind powered steering systems are many and varied in design. Most are not specific for use with mizzens as the vane itself is very likely to interfere with the boom.

I had an opportunity to see the Cape Horn aboard Bert's boat and I must admit that it is impressive for several reasons. The first is it is very light weight. It takes up very little space. The vane size is incredibly small and the mechanism is very simple. If it has a short point, it drives the ship's rudder. In the case of rudder damage it may not be so simple to clear away as it is attached to the rudder stock. With the ASWII rudder arrangement I suspect rudder damage would be difficult to do.

Date: Tue Oct 30, 2001 6:36 pm

By all means consider the Cape Horn windvane, very effective for our size vessels as well as larger one (a different model). I installed it last Spring and have had wonderful experience in winds from 10 to 55kts (the recent SW gale in LI sound, sailed all night with it both down and up wind). There is only one hole in the transom, line are limited to interface between two quadrants (the boat and the vane's) inside the lazzarette, the aesthetics are great (no oilk platfrom hanging off the stern) and the weight minimal.

Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:00 pm

Agree, and experience is great from 10 to 55kts so far, and water speed 3kts and above. Plus the addition of a simple tiller pilot (eg, Autohelm 1000) gives you a low power,very effective autopilot system.

As a fleet, we may obtain a special discount from Yves Geminas, who is also ready to come and install himself at a very reasonable labor rate, for one source responsibility!

Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 7:23 am


The unit we have is made of 316L Stainless Steel and lightweight 52 lbs.
(24 kgk.)

The company that makes it is Scanmar Int. and located at 432 South 1st
Street, Pt. Richmond, CA 94804 USA
Tel: 510 215 2010
Fax: 510 215 5005
[email protected]
Toll free 1-888 WINDVANE

I too was pleased to see them outperform some many different types and
sizes such as the Caliber 38, Endeavor 38, Irwin 37, that however is not
the first time I've seen that as we were able to remain with the Amel 42
during a strong tropical depression until they called and wanted to heave
too, we suggested they fall off 10 degrees and keep going to out run the
storm which we did. Waves washed completely through the Monitor windvane
during this voyage with no affect what soever.

One can purchase these at reduced prices at marine flea markets or by
watching the Boat US classified. I purchased mine that way and have only
had to replace a part or two that was sun damaged after some 15 years of
service.