1679 Mar 16, 2002
While changing the zinc on the heat exchanger (Westerbeke 30, 4-91) I noticed green coolant draining from the rawe water side of the chamber. I can only guess that one or more tubes are compromised and its time to replace it.
The Westerbeke online parts store has a replacement for #15799 ($489) and the transmission oil cooler #11518.
This seems to be the only source for #15799; has anyone found it elswhere?.
I would like to have this one refurbished and kept as a spare.
Dale, PickPocket K14
1680 Mar 17, 2002
Try Stewart Marine in Seattle - they have lots of used Westerbekes and price is fraction of new price from Hanson in Marblehead.
4375 Jan 17, 2004
II have just come back from the Sail Expo at Atlantic City. I was glad I went but the show was a shadow of previous shows.
New Found Metals,Inc. has nice opening ports that look like they could be of interest.www.newfoundmetals.com. They are in WA.Tel.360-385-3315.
Also of interest, Joe DeMers of Sound Marine Diesel, selling Beta Marine diesels, which use the Kabota block, says he can get Universal parts at prices much better than Hansen Marine.www.soundmarinediesel.com. They are in CT, tel 860-666-2184.
I also learned that there is a product called GIMEG which allows you to add a zinc pencil to your heat exchanger if you, like me, don't have one now. I was told that West Marine has it.
Also saw a swageless terminals carried by a company called "Sail Care". I think they are made by Hayn Marine.
These terminals are diferent than Norseman in that the wire is not spread over the insert thimble, but the thimble goes around the whole wire and is compressed against it on closing by wrench. Also, thimble is reusable. Sail Care phones, 800-433-7245 and 800-930-2060.www.sailcare.com.
Their cataloque has some interesting products, like the Battslide Car that may make it possible to fully batten a sail without installing a new track on the mast. They are importing Viadana blocks made in Italy.www.viadana.it.
Saw new boats but nothing special to my way of thinking.
Good Sailing (or dreaming),
4380 Jan 18, 2004
To the group,
I'm looking for a procedure to flush and clean the salt water side of the cooling system without removing
the heat exchanger. I was thinking of disconnecting the hoses from the pump and the output side of the
heat ex and introducing an acid solution and then flushing the whole thing out. This would include the
Questions involve acid solution to use and length of time to let it percolate.
Thanks in advance for any sage advice.
Gil, DAYBREAK, 122K
4382 Jan 19, 2004
I have had great success using an off the shelf product called CLR. Not near as caustic as muriatic acid and obviously less dangerous. I let the system "cook" for about 15 minutes before hooking back up to the raw water strainer. It was amazing the amount of calcified debris that came out the exhaust. Net result was better flow through the heat exchanger and a complete elimination of high temperature operation at higher RPMs.
If CLR is not available locally, I would imagine any household calcium and lime remover would work.
Best of Luck,
4383 Jan 19, 2004
Thanks - that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Will give it a try.
4386 Jan 19, 2004
CLR in a 3:1 solution with 10 drops of RED food coloring! Inlet hose into a bucket with the red CLR solution.. the exhaust injection hose into an empty bucket. Crank her up for a few moments. Once the residual raw water has turned pink in the discharge bucket, shut her right down. Go out for a beer and a hearty lunch. Reconnect the hoses and start her back up. Mission accomplished!
Paul, Sea Quill
4388 Jan 19, 2004
Paul: what approximate quantity of CLR soultion in the inlet bucket? Bert dF
4389 Jan 19, 2004
The W-30 had something like a 12 - 16 quart cooling system capacity... The CLR comes in gallon jugs.. I suggest about a 3:1 mix in a 5-gallon bucket. Should be more than enough... let it "cook" fr an hour or two.
4393 Jan 20, 2004
To flush and clean the salt water side of the engine I tried the following method and it was succesfull. Close the sea cock. Remove the impeller. Add a 1 m. hose to the inlet of the impeller. Add a 1m hose to the discharge end. Use two funnels with high capacities as possible (or pet bottles to fit) for the other ends of the hoses. Use a cleaning solution for heat exchangers (These are used by water cooled transferred large air conditioners for high volume buildings. The water is circulating to cool the gas in the compressors and the other end is on the ceiling of the building - Sorry what I used is a local one but these do not damage the metal.) You can also use soda for this.
Remove all the salt water. Keep the funnels at the same level and first fill the cleaning solution then add fresh water. Fill till both funnels are half full. Move one funnel up untill the other one is full, and vice versa. Run the engine and keep the funnels moving up and down. When you feel the water is heated stop the engine and continue moving the funnels. After some time pour the solution to a buckle and refill it again. Keep the solution in the block as long as recommended by the manufacturer. (You can also use radiator clenears for cars as the solution). Discard the solution. reassamble impeller and the hoses run the engine for a few minutes to clean the block.
The heat exchanger on the exhaust end of my engine was completely blocked with debris and rust which completely blocked the flow of raw sea water in my engine. The only solution was to take it off, open the metal caps on the cast iron, clean it mechanically, find new caps and reassemble.
7987 Oct 15, 2007
Hello group. I have been following the various interesting and helpful conversations for a while now. This has been my first year of ownership of a 1977 Allied Seawind, my first saltwater boat. I have had some overheating issues and put in a new thermostat, changed some hoses that appeared to be collapsing and replaced the rubber end-cap on the heat exchanger, since there was a small leak in it. Still, it would overheat after about 15 minutes, going from 180 to 200. The previous owner had sailed it for 10 years and never had this problem.
Prior to this I had the sea strainer replaced, along with all new seacocks. I had the yard look at it and they felt it was the heat exchanger. Bad news was, they had to take the engine out to replace the heat exchanger. The engine only has about 1600 hours on it, though it is the original engine. My question to the group is:
1. Should I rebuild the engine and put it back in? If I have it rebuilt it will cost $3000-$4000 plus the cost of removing and replacing the engine.
2. Should I bite the bullet and put in a new Yanmar. The Yanmar would run about $8000 plus the cost of removing the old engine and putting the new one in.
Being a small business owner I don't have time to attempt any of this myself.
I'd appreciate any thoughts.
7990 Oct 15, 2007
A few years ago I was faced with the same question. I decided against a rebuilt but instead installed a Universal M-35B. It's worked well for me.
7991 Oct 15, 2007
I too have a 1977 hull #60. In ’98 I repowered with a Yanmar 3GM. My decision to repower as opposed to rebuilding consisted of several factors including weight, size and price. What ever your decision; have your mechanic remove the fuel tank for inspection, repairs or replacement. We renewed the fuel tank due to pinhole corrosion in the fwd lower section of the cordon tank. I now have a 45 gal, as opposed to the original 40 gal fuel tank. The decision is yours, enjoy the rebuilt or renewed engine.
Have a great day,
7992 Oct 15, 2007
You may or may not have a overheat problem. I have had similiar temp readings. I used an infrared temp guage to determine engine temps and they did not indicate an overheating engine. The next thing to check was either an guageor the sending unit. It turned out to be a sending unit which cost 28.00 and took 10 minutes to install. The other time I actually did have an overheat situation and the cause was a blockage in the heat exchanger. Removing the endcap you could see all the zinc pieces that had clogged up the outlet "pipe". What the tip off was for this was the wonderful help all the other SWII owners freely give. There was a greatly reduced amount of water coming out of the exhaust at the transom. I too replaced some hoses, but the two above mentioned tasks solved the problem. Now the engine runs at 175 degrees all day long. The yard should not have to remove an engine to change a heat exchanger. Even on the Westerbeke where it is hard to get to. Your engine should go many more thousands of hours with routine maintence. Hope this helps. George
8032 Oct 17, 2007
If the engine needs a new heat exchanger, why not just give it one? As long as there is enough coolant flow of the right temperature, the engine does not care if it is the exact same HX or where the HX is
Could he get the needed heat exchanger or an equivalent one, find some place to mount it in the engine compartment, plumb it in with hoses measured to fit, add enough coolant to fill the system and be
done with it?
Chris Harker, #11K
8035 Oct 17, 2007
I had over 6,000 hrs on the W-30 and decided to renew w/Yanmar 3gm. When you remove the heat exchanger why have it checked to ascertain if rodding is needed. The heat exchange tubes may only need to be rodded. If I remember correctly in’98 the total cost of installing the engine and renewing with a 45 gal fuel tank was $10,000, 3gm inclusive. I assume you checked the intake elbow to the heat exchanger to assure no zinc blockage.
8055 Oct 19, 2007
Ted Vander Wiede that used to own my boat, Flicka, tells me that he did in fact remove the heat exchanger himself without removing the engine. Apparently, the exhaust manifold and heat exchanger come out as one unit rather than taking them out one at a time. If you want to ask Ted more questions his email address is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Capt. Trish Birdsell-Smith
8057 Oct 19, 2007
8060 Oc t 19, 2007
i pulled Voyager's heat exchanger last year without pulling the boat or the manifold. The only trick is one must grind down a socket and a 3" or so socket extension to get to one of the nuts. It's a pain to make the tool, but then pretty easy to pull the thing once the tool is made. I'm in Singapore now, but will try to take a pic of the tool when I return in a week.
Jack 057K Voyager
8064 Oct 19, 2007
I worked out of Singapore thorough the early to mid eighties. Do me a favor, if you have the time, info on a local and world renown artist, ‘Tomas Yo’. I have 8/9 of his originals and really like his work. Please head up to Newton Circle and have chili crab and watermelon juice for a meal, absolutely divine. If you have time, head down to old town at daylight or early morn and enjoy the food stalls and the history of the island. Thinks have most likely changed in the last 20/25 years. Singapore is one of my favorite cities.
Enjoy and haf’aday. Is your hotel on Orchard Road? One more thing, go to Raffles, for a meal and Singapore Sling. Just a read on Raffles Hotel is a piece of history in itself.
8065 Oct 20, 2007
Thanks for the ideas! My hotel is/was (I'm in Malaysia as of an hr ago, but will be back in S'pore Weds for a bit) just off of Orchard Rd. I did swing by Raffles, but didn't even think about getting a
Singapore Sling! Maybe Weds night...
All the best,
8074 Oct 20, 2007
Jack I have to pull my heat exchanger when Rendezvous comes out of the water in three weeks any
hints will be helpful SamB
8076 Oct 20, 2007
Sure - the mechanical fuel pump has to come out, as it will interfere with the heat exchanger as you lower it. But the fuel pump is just two bolts.
Four nuts (7/16" or 1/2", I forget) hold the heat exchanger in place.
Turn off the raw water seacock. Remove the various hoses. You can get to 3 of the 4 nuts using a 3/8" drive socket pretty easily (if working in the port locker is easy!). The 4th (as I recall, the one most forward nearest the boat's centerline) is too close to the heat exchanger to get a socket around it, and the socket extension is too big in diameter and interferes with the cylindrical part of the heat exchanger itself. I ground both tools to eliminate all excess material on a bench grinder. When I get back I'll post pictures of the tools. Are you anywhere near Maryland? I'm happy to loan them out.
You'll need new gaskets plus a gasket for the fuel pump. You'll lose all of the coolant into the bilge or drip pan, so have to restore that and re-"burp" the coolant system.
A local radiator shop glass beaded the heat exchanger for $50. You may also need a new rubber end cap ($55 or so from the pirates at Westerbeke). It's CRITICAL that the end cap goes on properly - there's a lip that must go over an internal baffle.
Some more thoughts before you do this, though. Is there enough raw water coming out the back of the boat? On Voyager if we hang a bucket over the exhaust through-hull it fills, with the engine at 800 RPM,
in about 30 seconds. If the answer is "no" then check the raw water pump (especially the impeller), obstructions in the lines, etc. Sometimes the problem is accumulated bad zincs in the heat exchanger.
Sometimes broken impeller vanes wind up in the oil cooler. It's not hard, but is a messy job, to pull the oil cooler and shake it to see if the vanes are in there. I'd leave that for last, though. The rick is there's a hidden allen-head bolt one must remove to get it out.
I change the raw water pump impeller every year as normal maintenance.
Is there enough coolant in the system?
Is the coolant system "burped?"
I got one of those Sears IR temp guages (non-contact things) and, with the sea water at 57 degrees, engine warmed up at 1000 RPM in reverse, and everything working properly took the following data just in case I ever have to diagnose overheating again. Maybe these will be useful to you or others:
Thermostat housing near sender: 170
Thermostat housing near bronze pipe: 178
Red engine under thermostat housing: 180
Middle of upper 1.5" rubber hose: 155
Middle of lower 1.5" rubber hose: 155
Manifold halfway down between bottom and hose, front of manifold: 199
Middle of oil cooler: 113
Heat exchanger forward just aft of rubber hose: 115
Heat exchanger aft: 77
Heat exchanger middle: 122
Manifold just above exhaust pipe, rear end of manifold: 252
Manifold middle on the side: 182
Manifold forward on the side: 184
Jack 057K Voyager
8081 Oct 22, 2007
Jack you are just awesome. So much detail we all very much appreciate. We are so lucky to have you in our group.
Okay, so what do you mean "burp" the system. I just took off & put back on again the fresh water pump & of course changed the coolant as well. I had to fill & run a couple of times to make sure all the air bubbles were gone but it sounds like you have a more sophisticated method of doing this. Please explain!
And I want one of those Sear IR temp gauges. How much are they so I don’t go out of my way to find a Sears only to faint on the floor in front of the price tag.
Capt. Trish Birdsell-Smith
8085 Oct 22, 2007
I wish I had a good method for burping (getting the air out of) the coolant system. it seems air gets trapped in the two hoses that run across the front of the engine. My method is to fill the coolant, run
the engine for a minute, stop it, and squeeze both hoses repeatedly till, well, till I get tired of it. For a minute or two. Then check the coolant level and top off as needed. Then repeat: squeeze hoses, engine on for a minute, until you no longer have to add coolant.
Then I run the engine and keep an eye on the temp gauge. Once it's up to temp and not overheating, run it in gear for a while. Then shut down, have a couple of beers for the engine to completely cool off,
and check the coolant level again.
If you have a water heater the procedure might be a little different, though.
The Sears IR thermometer was, gasp, $70. I hear rumors they can be had for half that tough I'm not sure where. Maybe Harbor Freight?
8091 Oct 23, 2007
Jack I bought one of the IR sensors for $50 at Sears yesterday, but after spending the money I am questioning myself if I really need it. If it is an important diagnostic tool, I will definitely keep it; if it is just an interesting tool, Ted will buy it off me.
So, if the engine overheats because of cooling water problems, doesn’t the entire engine heat up unless I catch it the moment it starts warming up or do I have time. Or if there is a block somewhere will it be warmer past that block & I will be able to tell from there. Any guidance you can give for using it as a diagnostic tool would be greatly appreciated, now that I have it in my hot little hands.
Thanks again Jack.
Capt. Trish Birdsell-Smith
8095 Oct 23, 2007
I haven't used mine to diagnose overheating. Instead, utterly frustrated when the engine was overheating, I kept wondering "what temps *should* I be seeing?" In my case the engine at idle ran too hot but not dangerously hot, so I could have done a lot of troubleshooting if I had had the IR sensor.
For instance, I know there should be some sort of drop in temp across the length of the heat exchanger... but how much? With the IR sensor it's now clear.
Call me anal - well, I'm an engineer after all - but I think it would come in handy if I had to repeat the overheating diagnosis agony. Fact is, I've gotten by for 45 years of sailing without the sensor so
far so it surely isn't a "must have!"
Jack 057K Voyager
8113 Oct 29, 2007
Here is the promised picture of the tools I made to remove the heat exchanger without pulling the engine. Basically I ground a 1/4" socket extension down, and a 1/4" drive 1/2" socket down to the minimum size possible.
8120 Oct 29, 2007
It appears that you ground the diameter of the extension and socket, and perhaps the length of the socket, too. Is that right?
8121 Oct 30, 2007
Right: I ground the diameter of the extension, and the diameter and length of the socket. The extension bangs into the cylindrical part of the heat exchanger so making it narrower gives a bit more clearance. The socket has to be short as it will also hit the HE, and narrow as the nut is so darn close to the HE that a normal-diameter socket won't go over it. So I took as much material off the socket as I could.
Just one of the four HE nuts was a problem; the other 3 were easy to get off, at least if you're comfortable working hunched over in the port locker.
I'm happy to lend these out if you have an immediate need.
Jack 057K Voyager