Please note: Paul Watson wrote an article for the Knowledge Base which summarized the recent discussion about Engines. It's located at November 9, 2001.

 

Date: Tue May 2, 2000 10:46 pm

My engine is a Pathfinder, we have about 2500 hours on it at this time and have had to learn to repair it ourselves. Seems you can not find competent mechanics who know the engine, but the company makes up for it with an excellent fix it manual, and assists in every way. Can't say enought good about them!

(Refering to an engine which takes 20 second crank after one minute preheat) Regarding your engine, it sounds like the preheat system should be checked. If one of the preheat units not working that would give you a very long preheat and require lots of cranking. I'd start looking in that area. Tell me what type engine it is and I'll have check with some friends who have a variety of engines and might be able to help you solve the problem.

Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:31 am


Thanks for the good informative details. (see Engine Troubleshooting)

How bad was your overheating? Alarm sounding? Or steady runs at well over 180deg? If so, how high was the temperature? Any other symptom(s)?

Am asking because for the 5 years I have owned Pianissimo, the temperature gauge has shown between 180-200 with oil pressure 60-80 depending on rpms from 1500 to 2000, and not always proportionate to rpms.

My more visible problem was the frequency of leaks at the FW pump, which pointed out to back pressure. Rather than your courageous debugging downstream, I have run some diluted acetic acid through the FW cooling system which you describe so well and it only improved things marginally on the gauges. We will see this winter if that helps the pump.

Otherwise, with over 2300 hours, the engine runs very well, touch wood! Around 1600 h before I went offshore, I had to change manifold (corroded), injectors (rehabs because of costs) and re-establish timing which knoclked after that injector replacement, upgraded the alrternator to 100A Ample Power, which affected my rpm reading, raising it up by a factor of 1.25, easy to mentally calculate.

In Horta, my starter started missing, and I purchased a rehabed one back in the States (I trekked around the whole island with this heavy lump trying for diagnosis and repair), which went bust once back home, so I have another rehab, plus the old original "repaired" as spare.

If you go offhsore, spare pump plus extra impeller, one or two injectors, heater zincs seem essential, Hanson Marine has some additional recommendations (eg, thermostat) which I have not yet used.

Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:42 am

The pencil zinc is machined with a thread that screws into the brass fitting, this machining creates the weakest point of it. Before you coat any raw metal remember that you are dealing with an anode that requires more than contact with the coolant, it does carry a small current. Regular replacement of the zinc, as tough as it is to get to, is truly the only real answer.

I lived aboard my boat for almost ten years in the Caribbean. The batteries were charged on average five hours per week, fifty weeks a year and she needed two zincs per year.

By the way, the "U" shaped tube is called a siphon breaker. It is used to prevent sea water from siphoning back into the exhaust manifold. Exhaust valves seize up in hours after exposure to sea water or even salt laden air. Its probably a good idea to remove the small fitting at the apex and replace the tiny, rubber joker valve in there (or the entire valve) at the same time. Calcium deposits render it ineffective over about a year.

*** one note here. Should the engine fail to start, for any reason, after a maximum of twenty total seconds of cranking, always close the raw water inlet sea-cock to prevent the raw water pump from filling the exhaust system and very quickly thereafter entering the exhaust manifold. The first thing to happen is hydro-lock where the fuel/air space in the cylinders is displaced with water and the damage can be fatal. Reopen the sea-cock only after the engine has started.

Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 5:54 pm

Symptoms Blocked U pipe

Engine always started normally. As it ran temperature continued to rise until alarm sounded at about 190. Always shut down at that time. The amount of water from the exhaust varied from little to none. Eventually the manifold temperature caused white smoke or steam.

My tach also reads funny. It seems to not change as the revs are increased and then jump to a new value. I also have a larger alternator. Not sure which brand. Food for thought.

FW pump looks new and old owners (who are great people, perfectly honest through-out the purchase process and justifiably proud of Flicka) confirm this.

Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 8:00 am

I had corresponded with owner of Pickpocket, and he mentioned that he had considered Niko, but noted that its Bukh auxiliary as an uknown factor. It was for me as well, but I did some research before seriously considering my purchase.

My engine is the model DV20 ME which is a 4 cycle two-cylinder raw water cooled type. Recommended cruising RPM is 2500, max is 3000. On the port side of the engine it states "Built by Bukh for Westerbeke". The engines are made in Denmark, and they are quite robust. They use a high-nickel alloy to minimize corrosion. They also utilize cylinder sleeves that are

replaceable. My engine is quite smooth running for a two cylinder since it uses a two-stage combustion process in addition to counter-weights. The engine has a compression release which allows you to start it by windmilling the prop in the event of a dead battery. There are two other interesting features as well. One is the use of a solenoid to stop the engine. I'm not sure how it works at this time. The other is an electric fuel pump and priming system.

I corresponded with some owners of sailboats who had the same engine who gave testament to the toughness of these engines. One owner stated that if you have a stuck thermostat, you must not only remove it, but close off a cooling water bypass hose, which allows water to bypass until the engine warms up. Apparently, it will continue bypassing even if the engine heats up, when the thermostat is removed. Anyhow his engine overheated and seized up. He unseized it and ran it for another two years before replacing with the newer model DV24 ME which generates four more HP due to the use of direct injection.

The negative side is the documentation is somewhat lacking at times in detail. Between the operating manual and the shop manual, I am left clueless as to how much oil to put in the crankcase. By trial and error, I believe that it is about 3 to 3.5 qts. The shop manual does not explain about the workings of the engine stop solenoid. Parts are not readily available in my area.

Crinan Marine in Ontario Canada is a sales and service dealer for these engines. They sale everything from minor parts to remanufactured short and long blocks. They will perform rebuilds if one has the time and money to ship an engine to them. Their technicians thus far have been very courteous and helpful in filling me in on how these engines work. I will in the near

future have them address the questions that I currently have.

I don't have my price sheet before me, but I know that a brand new DV 24 ME is considerable cheaper than an equivalent Yanmar. However this engine has a fuel consumption rate of 1.5 gal/hr. at max throttle of 3600 RPM, and about .86 at cruise speed. The Yanmar is probably more fuel-efficient.

To sum up my feelings on this, I would be more inclined to keep my engine and its lower RPM's and robust character than to upgrade to a Yanmar or other engine.

I welcome any questions or comments with regard to these engines. James S james4003@hotmail.com

Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 11:24 am

This sounds like a very interesting engine! I suspect the solenoid is a fuel-shutoff valve.

I have the Westerbeke 27 in my 1977 Seawind. Turns out this is a British Leyland engine, the same one in the London taxicabs (I'm told)! Westerbeke marinized it, as they do all the engines they sell.

Mr. Westerbeke died recently. I suspect the cause of death was angry customers. Parts prices are outrageous. So far my parts needs have been modest. But, since they want over $500 for a single injector and almost $2k for an injection pump, I can't help but wonder if a Yanmar makes sense

instead of a big W-27 overhaul.

Here's a site for Westerbeke parts, with on-line pricing:

http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/westerbeke/

Note that it makes sense to look for expensive parts elsewhere, but this site at least gives a benchmark.

My W-27 runs like a sewing machine, but has 2700 hrs on it. It appears to have new injectors and a new injection pump. Fuel consumption is very different than your Bukh. At 1800 RPM (my usual cruise speed, that's about 5.2 knots in flat water) is .56 GPH. For real economy (I had to motor 500 miles from Bermuda south this summer due to absolutely flat calms before the Trades kicked in) I throttle back to 1400 RPM, about 4 knots, and get about 1/3 GPH.

Yanmars want to run much faster, and I'm told the fuel consumption suffers. The slow-turning Westerbeke sure is quiet compared to a 3600 RPM Yanmar. When or if it comes to repowering it will be a sad day, giving up the peace and efficiency of this old W-27.

Also note - Ocean Outfitters in Annapolis (a GREAT place to get used gear) has a used W-27 for sale, for $2500 (though they usually are negotiable). It looks to have all original parts, so I have no idea if it's a gem or a potential disaster. The transmission is different, though.

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 6:36 am

Although my engine says that it was made for Westerbeke, the parts are proprietary Bukh, as I found out from the local Westerbeke dealer. Thank you for the listing, though,. I can still buy a whole DV20 engine (remanufactured) if I wished from a Bukh dealer. One thing that I would

like to note is that my engine is slower running than the new DV24 which supersedes it, and is suppose to get more fuel economy. If I needed to put in the newer engine, it will bolt right in. The parts prices did not seem any more outrageous than what one expect in marine applications. The Canadian prices from Crinan Marine in Ontario help as well.

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 12:02 pm

A small but excellent company in Canada called Pathfinder makes marine diesel engines. The smallest is a 55 HP, 4 cylinder unit which uses the block of the VW rabbit engine, German made diesels do have a good reputation. Parts are readily available, the technical manuals superb and

assistance from the company tops. We have used the engine now for over 14 years and find it excellent. Fuel consumption is 6/10ths of a gallon at full cruise rpm (6 to 7 knots) which is a smooth 2700 revs. A replacement engine goes for about 2500 US.

VW Parts are available world wide, important if leaving the US. Parts can be found in junk yards world wide because the same engine is in the VW rabbit and you don't have to pay marine prices..

So, if anyone is thinking of repowering......

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 9:44 am

I investigated repowering last year. My first instinct was to look at the Universal (now Westerbeke) 35 HP. The cost would choke a horse at well over $11,000.

Further investigation led my to the small Kabota 36 HP diesel that powers many of the skidder/loaders like Bobcat. The complete, crated engine is the same Kabota as the Universal and is available for $2500. Marinizing the cooling system can be had from Barr Marine for about $1700. To mount your own gear the bell housing is a Westerbeke/Universal part and I suspect that to be expensive.

 

Any change in power that introduces a higher RPM engine will also require a change in the propeller due to the fact the pitch is considerably different

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 10:04 am

Check out Crinan Marine in Ontario, Canada. Their website is http://crinan.on.ca/. They have contact information as well as literature on the new engines. Give them a shout. They are very helpful and courteous and at least one of their technicians know of the Allied SW II. They will

quote prices over the phone and will email you prices of the most commonly replaced parts. It seems that the price of a new or remanufactured Bukh appropriate for our boat is a little over half of your Westerbeke. With regard to the 20 hp being adequate, we left from Port Aransas bucking waves that were steep enough to raise the bow as high as 40 degrees going out jetty. The new engine is 24 hp. I would recommend at least giving it some research and consideration.

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 10:11 am

Bukh marine diesel engines are designed and built for a rough life at sea. They are not some companies idea of what a marinized industrial engine should look like - they are true marine engines with a pedigree which goes back over 100 years. The company which builds them is a marine engine manufacturer so these engines are their foundation, not a sideline to fill a

hole in a production schedule.

Bukh marine diesels are fitted to approximately 40% of the world's lifeboats because they have proven themselves to be extremely reliable engines, built to be highly resistant to corrosion and breakage. A serious engine for workboats and commercial applications and a superb engine for pleasure boaters who demand high reliability.

Date: Tue Oct 9, 2001 4:29 pm

What is that cylinder underneath the bowsprit?

Also the photo of the interior of the boat suggests that there is a metal fitting inboard of the lower bobstay attachment. On my boat there is nothingaccessible on the inside of the boat. Please elaborate.

Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 10:40 pm

Several years ago, I repowered 'Panache', hull #66 with a YANMAR 3GM, new shaft, renewed prop with a 16" 3-blade fixed Canadian (a dream in itself) prop and had to replace the fuel tank. The fuel tank was enlarged to 45gal. The 3GM gives me hull speed very @ 2600 rpm,.438 gal/hr.
I have been satisfied with this arrangement and can actually crawl over the top of the 3GM to check the transmission oil and I am not a small man by any means. The engine accessability in itself is well worth repowering and 27hp as opposed to the original Westerbeke's 25 mules is a plus.

If repowering the Seawind II, I would highly recommend the Yanmar 3GM. Definately worth considering.

Date: Wed Oct 3, 2001 9:12 am

My Southern Cross 31 also had the Yanmar 3GM. The heavy cutter, also a Gilmer design, was easily powered with similar & predictable fuel economy. The serviceability and accessibility were remarkable.

If I had negative observations they would fall into the vibration and noisy category at lower speeds but one can get used to that.

Date: Wed Oct 3, 2001 1:36 pm

I saw the Yanmar 3GM installed in the boat "Solution". It is very nice indeed. Lots of space which is now filled with refrigeration etc. on that boat.



Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:52 am

There is a site, marinedieseldirect.com, that has parts for most of the engines found on Seawinds.

Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 11:25 am

Your right of course, the Pathfinder is marinized by Pathfinder, a Canadian firm, and the engine block is similar to the VW engine. The difference as I understand it is its the industrial version not the car engine. Although accessories such as HP fuel pumps, oil filters, pulleys, are the same, the cylinder head, valves, and block have to be ordered from the industrial section of VW or from Pathfinder. Prices are automotive style instead of marine, so a new short block engine can run about 2,500 US for 55 HP. The engine is a high rpm diesel so it runs quiet like a gas car engine, at 2,000 rpms its so quiet normal conversation can be carried on without even knowing its running. I have to look to see if the rpm gage is showing it running.

We love the engine and Pathfinder in Canada as they are very helpful on every call, have a complete parts supply, and produce a do it yourself owners manual that instructs you to do everything to the engine and transmission yourself rather than relie on mechanics that may not be

available or do the job as good as you would.

We could not be happier with the engine and have put over 2500 hours on her since overhaul. The big question is when is it necessary to overhaul again? I don't have the answer to that one. With aircraft engines most don't go over 2500 hours before overhaul is necessary so when does one overhaul the engine if fuel consumption is normal, oil consumption is normal and cylinder pressures normal? My thoughts are when they change to less than normal, how about your views on this subject?

Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 7:55 pm

There seemed a very accepted rule of thumb regarding diesel engines when I was in the business. The stationary engine with predictable and well calculated load factors was easily capable of 10,000 hours assuming very diligent maintenance of the lubricating oil and the constant delivery of clean fuel and air, before a major overhaul. The major overhaul would lend the engine another span of just beyond 5,000 additional hours. The automotive diesel engine that was to run through constant changes of RPM and nominal changes in load was predicted to last 7,500 with similar maintenance. The industrial diesel engine for a truck with similar maintenance returned to the 10,000 hour range but lowered its "second" life after overhaul to 5,000 hours.

As one of my clients runs a trucking business he equated the answer as follow; Each long-distance tractor should run 1,000,000 miles before overhaul... Using this as a baseline to compare to the accepted rule to our diesels I did a calculation. 1,000,000 miles divided by 60 miles per hour (average) indicates 16,666 hours of operation.

The trucks in his current delivery fleet are all diesels spec'd with oversized engines to provide minimum wear per mile. The 1984 International van is still running flawlessly and has yet to have its overhaul and the mileage on the 'clock' is 765,000+ .

Somehow I suspect that the diesels in sailboats should be viewed far more like the stationary rather than the automotive diesel. Given that injectors, pumps, push rods, belts and other periphery are prone to failure and cause damage by overheating, salt water ingestion, corrosion, hydro-locks and the resultant, often fatal engine damage, it would appear that the engines with consistent and diligent maintenance may last, virtually forever.

I'm still jealous of your extra ponies and even more so of a manufacturer who can keep you going so reasonably.... Now, for the folks at Westerbeke.... another story.

 

 

Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:27 PM

The Engine Room

As often as we are so easy to complain about having to fire up the "Iron Genoa", or to raise the "Dee-sail" we are all acutely aware that each time we hit the switch there remains a possibility that the aging diesel will cough, sputter or bang noisily to remind us that such a vital and possibly neglected part of the family of systems aboard is undoubtedly the next thing on the "to-do" list.

Since the prototype Hull # 1, now Ed Dimock's sprite Camelot, and right up to the last, Sal Aloi's # 130, the time span of the oldest to the newest ASW II has seen several engine types installed by the various incarnations of the folks at Allied.

Seawind II owners are certainly not the only group to suffer a lack of engine access at the hands of designers and builders and even most of the current generation builders still sacrifice the space in favor of more attractive interior options.

Candidly, quiet advancing age and the commonly, limited ability to provide adequate attention to the power plant find most of us in doubt about the expected life span of the original engine.

I feel certain each of us has peered into that cavern at least once lately and wondered just how tough a job really is the removal.

We price the replacement engines and the peripheral modifications and the mounting estimate seems to allow us the thought that, "maybe this is better addressed when the time comes".

If each of us were so immediately capable of writing a check that magically employed a qualified mechanic to make the job so much easier, that check could easily be near $20,000.

Westerbeke no longer produces the venerable W-30 but offers two "suitable" replacements. The mounting is different in each. The overall dimensions prove that the overall length is close but not enough to insure that a new prop shaft is not required. The RPM range is not compatible with the slow turning original and a new prop is about $ 400 for the basic three-blade with a flatter pitch to accommodate the higher revs, considerably more for exotic folding ones. The alternator mounting is now to port side, making the belt adjustment more difficult as it will now hide behind the galley sink. Three-gang crank drive pulleys add another almost $ 300 to the mounting bill.

Once the old engine is sitting under a tarp on the dock alongside, that tangled mess of spaghetti hovering in the engine compartment beckons us to come hither. Re-wiring and certainly a few bits of aged plumbing attach themselves to the list of peripherals.

The wide selection of replacement engines suggested is one of the series of three-cylinder Yanmar engines. The Universal, a Westerbeke owned and distributed engine, the Buhk (which as James Self, Niko, has done a bit of research and had ongoing contacts with a recommended supplier) and the newest revelation, the powerful Pathfinder 55 horsepower, a marine converted Volkswagen diesel that resides within its mounts aboard Brenda and Don Bundy's Talisman, # 129K. Don informs us that he too has had a very good relationship with the Pathfinder distributor;

... the Pathfinder is marinized by Pathfinder, a Canadian firm, and the engine block is similar to the VW engine. The difference as I understand it is its the industrial version not the car engine. Although accessories such as HP fuel pumps, oil filters, pulleys, are the same, the cylinder head, valves, and block have to be ordered from the industrial section of VW or from Pathfinder. Prices are automotive style instead of marine, so a new short block engine can run about 2,500 US for 55 HP. The engine is a high rpm diesel so it runs quiet like a gas car engine, at 2,000 rpm its so quiet normal conversation can be carried on without even knowing its running. I have to look to see if the rpm gage is showing it running.

We love the engine and Pathfinder in Canada as they are very helpful on every call, have a complete parts supply, and produce a do it yourself owners manual that instructs you to do everything to the engine and transmission yourself rather than rely on mechanics that may not be available or do the job as good as you would.

Some of my own research has turned up that the Kabota, 35-horsepower engine, used primarily in the Bob Cat skidder/loaders, is the same core unit as the Universal and is available as an industrial "drop-in" engine and at retail, can be purchased for about $4000. The associated marinizing parts can be purchased or made but in either case add another $2000.

The transmission of choice for all of the above, except the Yanmar, is the Hurth H-100 or the H-150 and new, these dig into the checkbook for an additional $1200 - $1600. Overhaul of the existing Hurth is not difficult but requires a few special tools. Parts for the overhaul could run as high as $500. Quotes from three reputable Hurth servicemen range from $400 to $750 for an overhaul dependent upon the total of the parts replaced.

I feel certain there are other alternatives but for most owners the "major overhaul" of their existing unit is certainly a very viable option.

Parts for Buhk and Westerbeke are available and expensive but when considering the peripheral items required for most conversions the overall expense to re-build is quite reasonable in the long run.

In any case, the common aspect seems easily recognized that removal and installation of the engine is apparently the most daunting task due to the radically offset access doors of the design.

Don Bundy, Talisman, # 129, who frequently shares his comments, has written a very simple removal procedure that most likely is typical of most ASW II's.

To remove an engine from the SW II.

1. Remove alternator, starter, and any other peripheral equipment possible, including the heat exchanger.
2. Place 2 X 8's on the cabin floor to protect the floor lengthwise.
3. Attach the main halyard to the end of the main boom and harden up.
4. Remove the mainsheet attachment from the deck and use it to lift the engine out from below.
5. Attach a strap around the remaining portion of the engine and attach it to the main sheet. Harden up on the main sheet.
6. Slowly work the engine out onto the 2x8's and then lift it straight up and out the companionway, then slowly move the boom sideways and lower the engine onto dock, ground, etc.
7. When engine repaired, reverse the process for installation.

The only change he offered after regarding my query, was the lifting points, clarified and certainly simplified the process. I had pointed out that the mainsheet tackle is normally located just above the after end of the bridge deck and cannot provide a vertical lifting point. I suggested by moving the tackle forward to a point just above the engine compartment bulkhead and supporting the new lift point with a halyard or topping lift so the engine can be first hoisted to the bridge deck and then off the boat. He added another valuable view of using the tackle for multiple utilities in this follow up note:

"....we used both the main sheet tackle and an additional tackle set about 2-3 foot forward on the boom and adjusted both which permitted better control of the direction for and aft that we wanted the engine to go. One tackle was attached to the forward part of the engine, and the other at the middle and later at the aft end. I well remember the tackles initially bending around and aft into the compartment. We would gently pry the engine up, tighten the tackles and pull the engine slowly into the cabin, the tackles taking more of the load each time, each step was time consuming, taking about an hour to remove completely.

Recently, Don Bundy posed a question, regarding the expected lifespan of a diesel engine.

My varied service experience as an insurance surveyor/adjuster for marine and industrial, a vocational teacher of diesel engine and as a technician had offered me some basics regarding this.

In my note; ... there seemed a very accepted rule of thumb regarding diesel engines when I was in the business. The stationary engine, with predictable and well-calculated load factors, was easily capable of 10,000 hours assuming very diligent maintenance of the lubricating oil and the constant delivery of clean fuel and air, before a major overhaul. The major overhaul would lend the engine another span of just beyond 5,000 additional hours. The automotive diesel engine that was to run through constant changes of RPM and nominal changes in load was predicted to last 7,500 with similar maintenance. The industrial diesel engine for a truck with similar maintenance returned to the 10,000-hour range but lowered its "second" life after overhaul to 5,000 hours.

As one of my clients runs a trucking business he equated the answer as follow; each long-distance tractor should run 1,000,000 miles before overhaul... Using this as a baseline to compare to the accepted rule to our diesels I did a calculation. 1,000,000 miles divided by 60 miles per hour (average) indicates 16,666 hours of operation.

The trucks in his current delivery fleet are all diesels spec'd with oversized engines to provide minimum wear per mile. The 1984 International van is still running flawlessly and has yet to have its overhaul and the mileage on the 'clock' is 765,000+.

Somehow I suspect that the diesels in sailboats should be viewed far more like the stationary rather than the automotive diesel. Given that injectors, pumps, push rods, belts and other periphery are prone to failure and cause damage by overheating, salt-water ingestion, corrosion, hydro-locks and the resultant, often-fatal engine damage, it would appear that the engines with consistent and diligent maintenance might last, virtually forever.

Even if all accepted rules of thumb are but hypothetically halved, by reason of the various and destructive factors including the owner's inability to be totally diligent in maintaining the engine in their sailboat; then it seems also reasonable to assume that few of us actually put more than a couple of hundred hours per season on old "Thumper". Then this, may in fact, actually be the single most deteriorative factor in determining life span in boat diesels.

By design, the diesel engine thrives on a higher effort factor than the gasoline engine. This design element is most often determined by its predetermined load at a predicted RPM range. The diesel seems, by most experts, 'happiest' when it is carrying its expected load at 85-90% of its maximum RPM.

A recent discussion with one of the engineers at Westerbeke revealed that the original W-30 engine was designed to have a full throttle RPM of 2350 and that the reduction for best 'power' efficiency is at 2115 RPM.

I admit that even as experienced as I may be in the theory, I am guilty of rarely running my own Westerbeke at more than about 1950 RPM for what 'sounds' and 'feels' to be its comfort zone when powering upwind in a bit of a sea. Generally, if just wandering towards the next waypoint, on a glassy sea, the tachometer rarely sees more than about 1700 or 1800 RPM and Sea Quill clocks out a steady 5.5 knots, consuming about .5 gallons per hour. Fuel efficiency certainly suffers measurably for the sake of another quarter of a knot.

If we analyze the actual use percentages of the typical applications, I suspect most of us would agree that the diesel in our boat spends far more time at 12 - 1500 RPM charging batteries and turning the refrigeration compressor that it does pushing our presumed 17,000 pound, fully-laden, displacement at 85% of our theoretical hull speed (of 6.8 knots) or, 5.8 knots.

Somehow, I recall a fairly large volume of mail from some owners who discussed fuel efficiency of their boats at various RPM ranges and boat speeds but I seem unable to find that group of correspondence. If memory serves me correctly, however, most reported similar results to most of my own experience with my boat.

If I am allowed to hazard a guess that generalizes the life span of a marine diesel with nominal care and feeding it would probably range near 5,000 hours. If the same latitude is offered in generalizing the 300 hours pre season, the math offers a 16 year life span and most of us seem to have exceeded that.

The "engineering spaces" topics also provide us a look at the large volume of mail and comments regarding cutlass bearings, shafts, shaft seals, flexible couplings, exhaust systems and cooling systems.

So with the job of sorting through these topics and associated owner comments, in order to prepare for another installment, this essay ends with my hopes that some of our most basic diesel mail has been covered to date. I intend to follow up shortly with a brief essay on fuel, fuel tanks, filters and fluids before moving on the rest of the engineering spaces".

 

 

======================

 

Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 9:41 am

Does Pathfinder has a website or an email address or a tel/fax number? all these references would be useful, as it seems that repowering our Seawinds seems to boil down to a choice between them and Yanmar, and I may have to consider that step (Aye!).

Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 9:06 pm

Pathfinder Marine Inc.

P.O. Box 1284, Champlain, NY 12919

(514) 695-6676

FAX (514) 695-1080

E-MAIL pathfndr@pathfindermarine.com

This should get you into the company Presidents office. John Schaffer, mention my name as we have been on a good relationship for some time. He knows his engines like most should but don't.

Sorry for the delay in answering, was down at the Seven Seas Cruising Clubs jam in Melborne, Fl. for a few days picking up a few ideas and of course lots of gear for the boat.

Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:36 pm

Thanks for the very complete information on the diesels life. I expect that we can relax a bit and not have to run out and get ours rebuilt at 3,000 hours, but rather watch the oil and fuel consumption carefully and then make a decision around the 6,000 mark.

As an additional thought, as anyone knows there is a rumor that one should not run a diesel engine at idle for long. Well, it turns out that truckers do it all the time at truck stops for hours on end and have no trouble from it, the key is to run it at 1,000 rpm or more, not less. Thanks for the information.

Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:53 pm

Idling has almost no effect on industrial grade diesel engines. Aside from the mixture running too rich due to lowered combustion temperature there is no determined detrimental effects. The accumulated soot burns off quickly and harmlessly as soon as load and temperature increase.

Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 10:12 am

Atn. John Scherer.

Dear John: Are there any 50MF left in your shop? Our fleet is made of over a 100 boats, most with 25y old engines.

Alternatively, if no more, do you have a comparison between footprint.height/weight and cost of your former VW-derivative 50MF and the current smallest engine you manufacture. Is this 65MF as rugged and simple and reliable as the 50MF proved to be for our 32'boats? (eg,, what is the experience and technology behind it, as VW was behind the 50MF)

thanks in advance for answering these additional queries.

Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:03 pm

Great idea to write the letter this way. This may be an opportunity for a number of us and strikes me as a wonderful way to use this "group" ... to organize our buying power for parts we may all need.

Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:17 pm

Do you know what temperature the soot burns off? I know that in aircraft engines the temperature must get to over 800 degrees for the bromine to work at removing buildup on the valves. Is there some temperature in a diesel that your aware of?

Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:41 pm

I recently purchased a 1969 Karmann Ghia convertible for restoration. In the process of locating parts, I discovered a VW salvage yard right here in my own Oklahoma backyard. Wilson's is billed as having the, "world's largest stock of VW parts" Their junkyard has to be the cleanest I have ever seen in my life and they are very helpful. They have quite a few rabbits in stock and have extensive sources for most all VW parts (new or used) including rabbit diesels. As an aside. Are you aware that you can buy a brand new (old) style Beetle in Mexico? New (old style) Beetle engines are also available and can be bought and used in the US in your old Beetle. Unfortunately, new (old) Beetles cannot be imported. My guess is that one could probably still get a new rabbit diesel engine from Mexico also. I'm sure that Wilson's could advise on engine availability. Otherwise they could rebuild one for you. Their number is: 1-800-347-2847 or email them at: www.wilsonvw.com.

Still Seawindless,

Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 9:47 am

Thank you Paul H, but does the other Paul or Don Bundy know how difficult it is to marinize it, or should we discuss with Pathfinder, which did marinize VW engine in the past, with great success as testified by Don Bundy. I am trying to find out if they still do it.

Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:01 pm

The marinizing project is not one of such technical difficulty if in fact the parts to convert a specific engine are readily available.

Generally the areas for conversion are (1) the cooling system requires a heat exchanger to replace the radiator, mountings for raw water pumps, some hose routings and other existing taps blocked or rerouted (2) the engine mounting system is the custom brackets and mounts that are very different from the automotive originals, (3) the exhaust system which requires some attention to protection of the cylinder head from seawater incursion, back pressure preservation and adaptation to a generally larger diameter to include the efficient expulsion of combined exhaust and raw water, (4) the adaptation of the marine gear that requires a special, splined plate with breakaway protection, a specially designed flywheel, a bell hosing to adapt the gear mounting to existing, correspondent bores for the automotive transmission on the block face. Depending upon the specifications of any particular engine, other modifications to head gaskets, valve materials, injection pump timing, oil pump and pan changes to accommodate steeper inclined mountings can increase the scope of the project measurably. Often the actual space requirements and availability, for serviceability, of radical repowering conversions becomes quite an important issue as well.

Don has enjoyed quite a successful relationship with his own conversion as well as one with a parts distributor who in all likeyhood stocks all or most of the bolt on bits required to marinize a specific, 55 HP VW engine. If the "kit" is available, most of the bolt on stuff can be done in a weekend.

This is almost certainly not the case if the Toyota or a Volvo diesel were chosen for the conversion as these have never been common or commercially available as marinized diesel engines for small boats. In the case of these choices it is probable that most of the conversion parts would have to be custom fabricated at what I presume to be a significantly higher price. Add to that a very predictable increase in labor hours to design the systems, cut templates and attempt to stay within prudent engineering specifications.

Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 6:31 pm

Dear John: Your track record with Don & Brenda is inspiring much discussion as you see. Any reaction to my earlier forwarding of Don's musing that your 65VW may be the same as his 50VW but upgraded by your outstanding R&D efforts? By the way, the exact number of sisterships in the fleet (cutters and ketches) is 130.

1473 Feb 4, 2002

Subject: Engine in the Cabin

The photo of the engine the cabin is pretty neat.

For myself, I would take this opportunity to install an Yanmar. One never knows how long the present engine will last. My own engine has over 5000 hours and 25 years, but the engine is an orphan and essential parts are no longer available. The Yanmar probably has better temperature regulation, lighter and more room in the engine room. The price of Westerbeke parts seems unreasonable. My Westerbeke heat exchanger lasted about 22 years with yearly changes in the zinc. But it clogged up so that it would tend to overheat at high rpm.

Tim Colwell told me he spent over $10,000 for his new Yanmar installation which he did himself.

Dick Weaver SWII75K

1474 From: Jack Ganssle <jack@ganssle.com>

Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 4:41pm

Subject: Re: Engine in the Cabin

Dick,

Iím trying to put off the $10k price tag for 3-5 years, but know the day of reckoning is coming.

Thereís a great web site that gives online prices of parts for the W-27 (http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/westerbeke/). The prices there are about the same as what the thieves at Westerbeke quote. Injectors are $578 EACH! Ouch. Fortunately Voyager had a complete new set of those and a new injection pump ($1757) when I bought her. Otherwise a new engine would make a ton of sense.

Right now my engine has about 2700 hours on it, so it seems reasonable to get another couple of thousand before putting a ton of money into it. Iím hoping to spend about $1000 on this work.... which would be a reasonable cost to get the extra years out of it.

Jack, 057K Voyager

At 10:18 AM 2/4/02, you wrote:

The photo of the engine the cabin is pretty neat.

For myself, I would take this opportunity to install an Yanmar. One never knows how long the present engine will last. My own engine has over 5000 hours and 25 years, but the engine is an orphan and essential parts are no longer available. The Yanmar probably has better temperature regulation, lighter and more room in the engine room. The price of Westerbeke parts seems unreasonable. My Westerbeke heat exchanger lasted about 22 years with yearly changes in the zinc. But it clogged up so that it would tend to overheat at high rpm.

Tim Colwell told me he spent over $10,000 for his new Yanmar installation which he did himself.

Dick Weaver SWII75K

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jack Ganssle

To: Allied_Seawind_II@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 4:41 PM

Subject: Re: [Allied_Seawind_II] Engine in the Cabin

Dick,

Iím trying to put off the $10k price tag for 3-5 years, but know the day of reckoning is coming.

Thereís a great web site that gives online prices of parts for the W-27 (http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/westerbeke/). The prices there are about the same as what the thieves at Westerbeke quote. Injectors are $578 EACH! Ouch. Fortunately Voyager had a complete new set of those and a new injection pump ($1757) when I bought her. Otherwise a new engine would make a ton of sense.

Right now my engine has about 2700 hours on it, so it seems reasonable to get another couple of thousand before putting a ton of money into it. Iím hoping to spend about $1000 on this work.... which would be a reasonable cost to get the extra years out of it.

Jack, 057K Voyager

At 10:18 AM 2/4/02, you wrote:

The photo of the engine the cabin is pretty neat.

For myself, I would take this opportunity to install an Yanmar. One never knows how long the present engine will last. My own engine has over 5000 hours and 25 years, but the engine is an orphan and essential parts are no longer available. The Yanmar probably has better temperature regulation, lighter and more room in the engine room. The price of Westerbeke parts seems unreasonable. My Westerbeke heat exchanger lasted about 22 years with yearly changes in the zinc. But it clogged up so that it would tend to overheat at high rpm.

Tim Colwell told me he spent over $10,000 for his new Yanmar installation which he did himself.

Dick Weaver SWII75K

 

1486 From: PHIL BRIEFF <cbc@ix.netcom.com>

Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 0:07pm

Subject: westerbeke diesel parts

Some Westerbeke diesel engines use the Kubota block. Kubota has a web site and it will link you to their dealers and even those that sell used diesel tractors. Parts should be more reasonable from these guys.

 

 

1468 From: Jack Ganssle <jack@ganssle.com>

Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 8:32am

Subject: Engine Removal

Well, folks, Voyagerís engine is now in the main cabin (see the attached picture). I removed much of the sink cabinet per Paulís suggestion and most of the bulkhead to the engine room.

It was handy having a 14 year old, to unbolt the prop shaft coupling. Thatís really hard to get to.

The rest of the job wasnít too hard, just incredibly tedious removing all of the wiring and plumbing. I dunno if it will ever all go back together...

The engine itself is very heavy. Three tackles and two middle-aged adults were barely up to the job, though it was only an hour to remove it once everything was disconnected and unbolted. We slid a 2x10 under the engine and pulled it off the beds onto that, and then along the board into the main cabin. Itís now resting on that, in a cradle I made that supports the two front engine mounts so passing wakes wonít tip it over.

It looks like getting the thing back into the engine room is going to be much harder than getting it out.

What a mess! 25 years of wear and tear have made it rather rusty and ugly. I plan to degrease it somehow and hit it with some Mr. Westerbeke red paint. And, do the head, replace many, many gaskets, etc. The exhaust manifold had a lot of goo in it so needs cleaning. The rear oil seal leaks so the trans has to come off. Iím not sure how to tell how much life is left in the heat exchanger, but will remove it and at least peer inside and clean the thing.

Iím keeping a photo journal and will send them all with commentary to Howard for the web site when the whole project is done... though at the moment it seems overwhelming.

Jack, 057K Voyager

1471 From: Howard <hhassoc@erols.com>

Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 0:09pm

Subject: Re: Engine Removal

Sounds like fun.

Is there any way to rig tackle or a comealong aft to pull the engine back in?

I can usually break away until about 1300 when I turn into a chauffeur. If you need a body, just give a yell.

Howard WA4CWK

1472 From: Jack Ganssle <jack@ganssle.com>

Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 4:02pm

Subject: Re: Engine Removal

Howard,

"Fun" might not be the word Iíd use right now!

To reinstall the engine Iíll put another short 2x10 under it, with a layer of slippery stuff between the two boards, and use a come-along and/or levers to horse it back. That will put it high enough to clear the beds. But right now I have so much work to do to the thing that itíll be a while - March I hope - before reinstalling it.

Jack

At 09:09 AM 2/4/02, you wrote:

Sounds like fun.

Is there any way to rig tackle or a comealong aft to pull the engine back in?

I can usually break away until about 1300 when I turn into a chauffeur. If you need a body, just give a yell.

1493 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 0:40pm

Diesel engines and parts

I recommend checking with Crinan Marine for engines and/or parts. They deal in Bukh, Yanmar, Westerbeke, and Universal. I have found them to be up to half as expensive on certain engine parts for my Bukh as opposed to domestic dealers. They also do a lot of work on engines and can give you intelligent and informed answers to technical questions. Talk to David and tell him that James Self sent you.

Contact Info:

Crinan Marine, LTD.

176 Railway St.

Kingston, Ontario K7K 2L9

Voice 613-542-4917

Fax 613-542-4917

email crinan@c...

www.crinan.on.ca

For those who are considering repowering and changing from their original engine make, I would certainly recommend looking at the Bukh. Mine was made by Bukh for Westerbeke. It is a thoroughbred marine engine from the ground up. They arenít ex taxicab or tractor engines. I believe that youíll find that they are not as pricey as the Yanmar as well.

James

1493 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 0:40pm

Diesel engines and parts

I recommend checking with Crinan Marine for engines and/or parts. They deal in Bukh, Yanmar, Westerbeke, and Universal. I have found them to be up to half as expensive on certain engine parts for my Bukh as opposed to domestic dealers. They also do a lot of work on engines and can give you intelligent and informed answers to technical questions. Talk to David and tell him that James Self sent you.

Contact Info:

Crinan Marine, LTD.

176 Railway St.

Kingston, Ontario K7K 2L9

Voice 613-542-4917

Fax 613-542-4917

email crinan@c...

www.crinan.on.ca

For those who are considering repowering and changing from their original engine make, I would certainly recommend looking at the Bukh. Mine was made by Bukh for Westerbeke. It is a thoroughbred marine engine from the ground up. They arenít ex taxicab or tractor engines. I believe that youíll find that they are not as pricey as the Yanmar as well.

James

1564 From: Jack Ganssle <jack@ganssle.com>

Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:01pm

Subject: Engine Update

Dear Folks,

Iíve been silent lately, busy with life and boat and stuff, but thought yíall might like an update on my Westerbeke job.

Voyagerís engine is now in the main cabin, in a billion little pieces. Sigh - will it ever get back together? Gaskets are on order. My poor boat is a mess with tools, parts, removed woodwork, etc all piled up below.

Itís interesting to note the engineís condition. I hope this might give others a feeling of confidence; after all, itís hard to trust an old engine. This engine looks like hell, dirty, rusty and all. Mine has 2700 hours on it. Status:

Piston heads (Iím not pulling the pistons but the head is off so I can look at these): Very little carbon, no grunge.

Cylinder walls: unscored. Look almost new.

Valves: a bit of carbon, but very little.

Head inner surfaces: brand new looking.

Oil pan: I expected after 25 years to find a layer of sludge. Nope. Just the very tiniest film of non-oil; almost unnoticeable. Some rust on the bottom of the pan, on the outside, no doubt due to a failed sea water pump.

Heat exchanger: look great, but going off to a shop for testing.

Manifold: a little carbon accumulation, easily cleaned out. No wear or corrosion.

Iíve been painting removed parts (transmission, bell housing, oil pan, manifold, etc), using Westerbeke Red and a Rustoleum primer. The engine block itself will get scraped and painted too, after reinstalling gaskets, head, etc. Iíll reseat the valves (just because itís all apart) once the new seals come in.

But - after 2700 hours, this thing looks almost pristine internally.

Interesting things Iíve learned:

Westerbeke moved the oil stick from the British Leyland position. They put it in what is normally the oil pan drain, removing that drain from useful service. I intend to put a "T" there with a valve to ease oil changes.

The injector pump has an oil filter associated with it. The book says to remove and clean this every other oil change! Thatís news to me. Itís one of those bolt heads on the starboard side. I have not yet removed it so no report on its condition yet.

The oil pickup in the oil pan has a rather large filter on it. It is perfectly clean.

Some of the head bolts are under the rocker arms. Worse, two of the rocker arm bolts are also head bolts, which means itís impossible to torque the bolts under the arm without a special tool, which seems unavailable. Iíll try to fabricate one and will share with anyone needed to torque their head.

Jack, 057K Voyager

 

1565 From: Howard <hhassoc@erols.com>

Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:28pm

Subject: Re: Engine Update

Somewhere in the stuff which came with my boat is a funny looking wrench. I havenít seen it for a while. If memory serves me, it was made by bending a wrench with 2 ninety degree angles so that if you look straight down from the driver end, the socket end will be in line with it. Each leg is about 4 inches. Iíll see if i can dig it up and post something clearer than the above mud.

Howard

1566 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:21pm

Subject: Re: Engine Update

All,

Snap-On Tools still produces several special wrenches (as Howard has described) to torque head bolts below the rocker shaft. I used them for years when, in another life, I was a Volvo mechanic.

Jack. The salt water effected only the oil pan on my boat. Replaced it in 1992 otherwise almost similar lack of wear in anything! I did pull the pistons and put in new rings and bearings only because it had not been run in about 5-years when I got her. I suggest the aircraft fittings on a 2-foot neoprene based HP hose with a drain plug fitted to the free end. Makes oil changes almost bearable now.

Paul

From: Jack Ganssle <jack@ganssle.com>

Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:27pm

Subject: Re: Engine Update

Howard and Paul,

Thanks much for the input! After getting your email, Paul, I checked the Snap-On web site (www.snapon.com) and the do indeed have this tool for about $45.

As far as the oil pan goes, I was thinking about putting a T on the current dipstick fitting. The upper end of the T goes to the normal dipstick tube, the lower one to a valve for draining with a nipple that one can put a hose on. Connect the hose, flip the valve. Then no worries about high pressures and heat in a permanently attached hose. Does this make sense?

Jack 057K Voyager

 

1683 From: Howard <hhassoc@erols.com>

Date: Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:47am

Subject: Re: Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

Their webpage wasnít much of anything but here are the phone numbers.

Stewartís Marine, Inc.

4600 Shilshole Ave. NW

Seattle, WA 98107

(206) 789 - 4600

(800) 735 - 7207

If you contact them, please let us know what you think.

1684 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:20am

Subject: Re: Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

Dale,

I would recommend trying Crinan Marine in Canada. They deal in Westerbeke parts among others. I bought my Bukh parts there at about 40% to 50% cheaper than what the U.S. distributors were charging. Give them a try.

Contact infomation can be found at there website at

http://www.crinan.on.ca/.

James Self, Niko (91)

1689 From: Dale White <lthothed@bellsouth.net>

Date: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:16pm

Subject: Re: Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

Howard,

I ordered both the HE and Trans oil cooler from Stewartís; still $707 for both and gaskets. Aprox. 10 day delivery.

They had none in stock new or used of the HE #15799 but had the upgrade to the oil cooler in house. With shipping (no sales tax here) the price works out close to the Marine Diesel Westerbeke online store. The lady there did urge me to consider repowering instead of putting money into this engine. Will probably do just that when this iron horse incurs another major expense. For now it runs very well and its Sailing season here in Florida.

Thanks for the referral.

Dale

in Pensacola

PickPocket K14

 

1700 From: Dale White <lthothed@bellsouth.net>

Date: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:51pm

Subject: Re: Repowering was Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

I didnít give her a chance to provide that info, but appreciate her cander.

The lube oil cooler seems to be sound for now but Westerbeke wants $494 for

a new one.

At these prices I donít think I would want to suffer thru an engine

overhaul!

While shopping around for a 32/33 ft Cruiser before PickPocket, I researched a Pearson 323 and inquired on that e-mail list about the Volvo MD11.

The question was posed "What is the best way to overhaul that Volo?"

Someone answered "Yanmar 3GM"

There were some previous discussions on this list on the topic.

I believe comments about the Yanmar were: Higher revving, fuel consumption

and noise than the Westerbeke.

The Buhk and the Pathfinder were also discussed.

If I start finding water on the dipstick, I will probably entertain The Yanmar as a winter project.

But now that I have familiarized myself with my Westerbeke Four 91 at 2500

hrs. I hope not to part with it.

Dale

PickPocket K14

1703 From: William Dunsmore <bpduns@msn.com>

Date: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:56am

Subject: Westerbeke Four-91

To All with a 4-91

I recently had a conversation with a marine surveyor from Mystic, Ct, who had just rebuilt his Westerbeke in an Allied Princess. He informed me that you could purchase engine parts from Perkins, who actually made the engine, for about 30% less then Westerbeke prices.

Best

Bill Dunsmore

Fancy Free #87

1705 From: johnvan100@aol.com

Date: Thu Mar 21, 2002 4:29am

Subject: Re: Repowering was Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

I purchased my Seawind ll in April 2000. The original engine only had 827 hours on it and everyone said with that amount of hours I shouldnít have to worry about an engine survey.

I had a few problems later with it smoking and had to hold my speed about 3-4 knots. In August 2000 on an overnighter, the impeller blew and I was towed into the marina where I purchased the boat.

We found the engine had no compression because the rings were shot and the choice of rebuilding the engine and taking a chance the transmission would go bad later did not look like a good deal to me. I learned that parts for the engine and transmission are almost impossible to find and if you can find them, the price is prohibitive.

I replaced my Westerbeke with a new Kubota 37HP diesel and it runs great.

It is smaller than the original and it is very quiet. I now have peace of mind and can enjoy my trips. You better believe we donít baby this engine. Like the man said, " Those Kubota tractors run uphill all day long." Kubota has opened up a marine division in their company and there is good support.

You might want to look into the purchase of a new engine.

John VanDerburgh

skipper of van der Ellen

hull #98

1709 From: B. de Frondeville <bdefrond@mindspring.com>

Date: Thu Mar 21, 2002 8:21pm

Subject: Re: Repowering was Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

It looks like we now have several repowering alternatives, between Yanmar 27G, Kubota 37HP and Pacific Marine 50 or 60, etc. We should take an inventory of all satisfied owners of such, and compare typical data, such as rev., torque, fuel economy, noise, etc. Bert dF, Pianissimo 80K

1714 From: Tom Lix <tomlix@hotmail.com>

Date: Fri Mar 22, 2002 11:03am

Subject: Re: Repowering Comparisons

This sure would be helpful. Did anyone read the recent "review" of engines

in Practical Sailor? It was uncharacteristically useless (and the follow-up

letters to the editor this month seemed to suggest the same).

Tom Lix

Relief #17

 

1715 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Fri Mar 22, 2002 0:54pm

Subject: Re: Repowering was Four/91 Heat Exchanger and oil cooler

In almost every case of the Kubota 37 HP engine application it has proved nearly indestructible.

A friend owns and operates three very large Bob Cat franchises in Conn. Each of the various loaders and skidders from the three largest manufacturers of this equipment has chosen Kubota for the majority of their power plant applications. The abuse given by landscapers and building contractors to this equipment is indescribably brutal. I was offered as much research as I wished regarding the service history of the engines. The Kubota 37 HP block more than has earned great respect in my eyes.

From a conversion standpoint the size, power-to-weight ration and adaptability have convinced me that it is the best engine for the task. The best news is that the complete engine (automotive adaptation) is less than $5,000 in the crate. The marinization can be accomplished by using the parts from Westerbeke/Universal or Barr Marine. I suspect that adapter plates to link one of the three transmission gears can be made or purchased. I have not gone that far as yet.

The more important understanding about the import duties levied upon Japan built engines is the import duty is based upon stated horsepower. The Yanmar states 27 HP and actually dynos at 31 when at maximum RPM.... Considering the general rule for sailboat power where the max RPM should be 90% of max RPM Yanmar delivers about 28 HP. The same rule for the cheaper Kubota delivers almost 35!

Since replacement of the relatively slow turning W-30 with a higher RPM plant, consideration for not only the mounts and bed adjustments but the propeller replacement for a flatter pitch adds several hundred dollars to the equation. The marinized Yanmar installations will likely net out at about $12,000. The Kubota appears considerably less than $10,000 if the conversions are each professionally done. "Sweat equity" saves even more in the Kubota job.

Paul

 

1734 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Mon Apr 1, 2002 11:46am

Subject: How many SWIIís with Bukh engines?

Howard,

I was wondering if my SWII was the only one with a Bukh installed from the factory. Were all of the other factory engines either Westerbeke or Universals?

James, Niko (91)

 

1739 From: testpilots@juno.com

Date: Mon Apr 1, 2002 2:24pm

Subject: Re: How many SWIIís with Bukh engines?

James,

Our engine is a 55HP Pathfinder, which is made in Canada. They have an excellent reputation, produce a engine manual for owners to conduct all maintenance themselves and offer the best of assistance. All engineering changes are sent to the owner of record, and parts availability is world wide from VW. This is a German made diesel. Product support is excellent and exchange long blocks are available when the time comes for overhaul.

Don Bundy

1789 From: andrzej_koltun <andrzej@dvicomm.com>

Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:39am

Subject: Repowering a Seawind (30 ft) from GrayMarine gas to Yanmar or Bukh diesel?

Iím a new Seawind owner with lots of work waiting for me. Iíll be

based in Port Washington, LI, and yes, I plan to look up "James"

because it seems lots of what he did, Iíll be starting to do. Please

remember that plagiarism is the finest form of flattery.

My first challenge will be to repower. I initially planned to

install an electric drive, probably a Solomon Electric wheel, but

their price, plus all the added electronics came to about $20,000.

My more conservative plan is to go the Diesel route. I was set on a

Yanmar 3GM30F, but I read the post on Bukh engines, which got me to

think and speak with their distributor (Crinon Marine).

I would love to hear anyoneís ideas on what is the best approach. Specifically, I would like to understand the differences in complexity between swapping out the GrayMarine for either the Yanmar or the Bukh DV32ME. Also, is the Bukh thaty much better (200 lbs and $1,400)?

Thanks for all the help you can give me.

Andrzej

1793 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:12pm

Subject: Re: Repowering a Seawind (30 ft) from GrayMarine gas to Yanmar or Bukh diesel?

Andrzej,

The Bukh DV32 ME and the DV24 are two cylinder engines based on the same engine block as my DV20. The DV 24 gains the four extra HP through direct cylinder injection and the DV32 gains its extra HP via a turbocharger. Bukhs have a higher weight-to-HP ratio than the Yanmars and Westerbekes, and I believe that they are more durable and serviceable in the long run. They are built from the ground up as marine engines as opposed to those of other makes that are marinized after their manufacture. Their cylinders have replaceable sleeves. The U.S. Coast Guard rough water rescue boats (the ones that came roll 360 degrees) have Bukh engines.

I also suspect that Bukh engines take up less room laterally, although they are somewhat tall. I could see about scanning and sending you some pictures of my engine. I have plenty of room to change the oil filter, alternator, and starter from the engine compartment doors in the cabin. I am also able to get to other parts of the engine from within the port and starboard lazarettes.

1796 From: B. de Frondeville <bdefrond@mindspring.com>

Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:30pm

Subject: Re: Repowering a Seawind (30 ft) from GrayMarine gas to Yanmar or Bukh diesel?

Andrzej: Welcome! we have just completed a year-long discussion of various repowering approaches, adding to your two: Kubota and Pacific Marine. I suggest you dig in the website, get guidance from Howard (hhassoc@erols..com and Paul "Compass" of SeaQuill: witewake@optonline.net., along with Don and Brenda. Please also consider joining our Fleet Rendez-Vous "GAM-May18-19 2002" at American Yacht Club in Rye, NY across the Sound. Let Compass and me know ASAP if you decide to join, with or without your boat.

Whatís her name and hull number, by the Way?

1950 From: bdefrond <bdefrond@mindspring.com>

Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:08pm

Subject: Repowering with Yanmar 27G. Urgent questions.

over the past month, Seawind IIK Pianissimoís valorous WEsterbeke W30 has shown rather dismal signals, a la Sea Quill or Flicka, compelling me to consider repowering, and the Yanmar 27G seems to have many supporters.

anyone cares to comment? any cost numbers (new engine, removal and installation, new longer shaft, etc.). I have a maxprop so no need to change the propeller.

By the way, the latest travail was the popping up of the "oil sender", a screwed in cap with two flat electrodes that spewed most of the oil into the pan and bilge, although I was reasonably prompt in detecting a swift decline in oil pressure from 60psi to 40 psi and 20psi by the time I had checked the exhaust (normal but smelling hot oil) and shut off the engine.

I have cleaned up, refilled with new oil, rescrewed a new cap and started the engine all right, but somehow I have lost confidence, and worse, my wife too...

So, any inputs on cost and precautions on fitting a Yanmar 27G? or do people regret not having put in a Yanmar 40, (but isnít it too high, and bumping intop the fuel tank?).

Thanks for a prompt answer: I am leaving Friday 28 for a mont in europe which would be good for getting the job done.

Kind Regards and fair winds. Bert de Frondeville

1969 From: J & F Morrison <jffoxmor@comcast.net>

Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:15am

Subject: Westerbeke 30 starter

Chautauqua has a Westerbeke 30 & I am having starter problems. I need information on removal & sequence of removing bolts being as least 2 of them go through the motor mount. Does engine have to be blocked for removal. Problem does seem to be electrical but cannot trace cause. Does anyone have prior experience with this?

Intermittently, when pushing start button, starter starts to engage but then the entire electrical system shuts down. Everything works again but it may be from me shaking the wires or just on itís on itís own.

My plan is to remove starter & have it checked out at a shop.

I would appreciate any advise.

John Morrison Chautauqua #92

1970 From: Taralah1@aol.com

Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:07pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 starter

Havenít had this problem yet but I have researched starter replacement without going thru Westerbeke (Lotsa money). If you need any of this info please let me know/

Danny Prater

#086S, Taralah

1972 From: William Dunsmore <bpduns@msn.com>

Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 9:20am

Subject: Westerbeke fresh water pump

I need to replace my Westerbeke fresh water pump part #17909.

Diesel direct $427.00 remanufactured

Westerbeke (Hanson Marine) $428.00. new ?

Do I have any other options, that anyone knows of ?

Thanks

Bill Dunsmore

Fancy Free #87

1974 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:00am

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 starter

John,

Just had my W-30 starter out for overhaul in 2001..... two bolts through the mount, two lags through the stringer, remove the mount, no blocks required... possibly a bar to jiggle the alignment as the starter is replaced.

Paul

Sea Quill

1975 From: Sharon Cuzner <silverspray@msn.com>

Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:39pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke fresh water pump

Go directly to Jabsco and save $200. They have direct outlets in several coastal cities and a website. We carry a spare, when through the same deal with Bob Hanson and Westerbeke, and went to Jabsco. It wonít be Westerbeke red, but buy a can of red paint it you insist on color coordination.

Silver Spray 101K

1976 From: J & F Morrison <jffoxmor@comcast.net>

Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 5:47pm

Subject: Starter

Danny,

Any info will be appreciated on removal & replacement of starter.

Paul,

Thanks for the info...we will consider the parts. Iím going to chase down corrosion in the electrical wiring from the battery switches before removing the starter since power breakdown is intermittent.

Thank you. John Chautauqua

1977 From: Taralah1@aol.com

Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 3:00pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 starter

Paul:

Do you have a price list?

Danny Prater

#086S, TARALAH

1978 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:03pm

Subject: Starter

John,

Starters often become intermittent in the solenoid contacts......

Paul

1979 From: J & F Morrison <jffoxmor@comcast.net>

Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 9:07pm

Subject: REPLY

Paul,

Thank you for both bits of info. We are going to the boat tomorrow & will check it out.

John

1980 From: PHIL BRIEFF <cbc@ix.netcom.com>

Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:47pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke fresh water pump

If your engine uses a Kubota block you might try locating a Kubota tractor dealer and if they use the same fresh water pump the replacement may be less costly. If it is not a Kubota block find out what kind it does use and see if a non-marine dealer has it. Good luck and let us all know what happens.

Phil

1981 From: barvec@aol.com

Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:08pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke fresh water pump

Bill,

I purchased a fresh water pump about 8 years ago in Miami and I only think it was about $250, let me know if you have not resolved your problem and Iíll try to find the old receipt.

I assume the bearings have burned out. Why dont you pull it and take it to a machine shop and see if they can replace the bearings.

On the salt water pump I replaced the bearings myself. Boat US helped me find the replacement bearings through their Specialty Parts Dept.

Good Luck!

Barry V

1982 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 11:21pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke fresh water pump

My old Westerbeke-30 is out and on the ground.... it just happens to have a brand new circulation pump and a new raw water pump.... the circulation pump was $415 from Westerbeke... Anyone need a pump?

Paul

Sea Quill

1983 From: Lbyc1@aol.com

Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:24am

Subject: Re: Repowering with Yanmar 27G. Urgent questions.

Yes, I repowered w/a 3GM several years ago.

1. Fuel tank had to be replaced and had it replaced w/ a 45 gal. alumn. ( I suggest you do this when you have the Westerbeke pulled. I actaully gave the old Westerbeke away for a thousand dolla.

2. Will have to cut out the original engine mount, not an easy job since it is basicly resin and many a sawzall blade later. John new

3. Of course you will renew the shaft and coupling.

4. Another thing I would suggest is a Cambel Prop. You will be definately impressed. The props performance sells itself and I believe you will be satisfied. Even if it is a strange looking beast.

5. I had John Moore, of Moore Marine in Mobile, Alabama do the installation.

John is also a Yanmar dealer.

Yes, I recommend the Yanmar 3GM, I only wish I could have had it installed when Panache was purchased in 1988. I will be out of touch for two weeks.

Have a rather great day,

Gene N. Kohrman

Panache, hull #60

 

1985 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:25pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 starter

John,

I do have that almost brand new W-30 starter available... have you located your problem yet?

Paul

1986 From: stpetescorer <rweaver@stpetescorer.com>

Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:12pm

Subject: Westerbeke 30 Starter

I have replaced the starter of a Westerbeke 30. As I recall one of

the mounting bolts is almost inaccessable as it is near the starboard,

rear motor mount. That bolt is best accessed with a special kind of

socket (I have forgotten the name) which is like an open-end wrench

and extends at right angles from the drive shaft of the socket wrench.

I also had to back off the motor mount to have access, and then when

the new starter was installed, return the same number of turns on the

motor mount.

The starter is very heavy, and removing it is a two man job, I think. Because of the awkward position, I donít think any but superman can hold the weight of the starter in position. I arranged a sling of rope around the starter with two ends. The ends each came out a cockpit locker, one on each side. I took up the slack with winches which I have mounted on the mizzen for mizzen halyard and mizzen staysail halyard, but you could arrange some other way to control those lines if necessary. We had one man in the cockpit locker removing the bolts and one controlling the lines.

I think you may well have a bad starter. My local starter shop was able to fix mine, and also to provide a spare.

Dick Weaver, SWII 75K

1988 From: Dale White <lthothed@bellsouth.net>

Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:25pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 Starter

I believe the open ended ratchet socket you refer to is called a "Club Foot"

A wrench size1/2" taped securely to a ratchet extension has gotten alot of

use aboard PickPocket.

Also works well for removing the fresh water heat exchanger.

Dale White

PickPocket K14

1989 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 7:11pm

Subject: Starter removal/replacement

The starboard side motor mount is easily removed if the lag screws into the stringer are first removed. The entire bracket slips out with almost no sagging from the engine position. The reinstallation may require a very slight lift with a crow bar and the holes all line up once the starter is re-installed.

The product Tef-Gel is a very effective antisieze compound for the cable nut on the B+ cable of the starter. spurs@spursmarine.com

Expensive but well worth the purchase. Now, the good news.... coat the prop, shaft and any underwater, bronze fitting with the stuff and kiss the marine growth goodbye.

1990 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 7:05pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 Starter

Dale,

Actually, you are very close to correct, the actual term is "crowís foot" but in any case the correct tool does a very much easier job than the 1/8 turn you get from flipping the open end wrench about 60 times for the starter. The manifold/heat exchanger is another story...

Paul

Sea Quill

1992 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:34am

Subject: repowering with the Yanmar

1994 From: Howard <hhassoc@erols.com>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:51pm

Subject: Re: repowering with the Yanmar

Paul

Please take another shot at posting the pictures. Mine didnít make it.

Thanks

Howard WA4CWK

S/V Scooter II, Allied Seawind II #67

Shady Side, Chesapeake Bay, MD

hhassoc@erols.com

Post message: Allied_Seawind_II@onelist.com

Subscribe: Allied_Seawind_II-subscribe@onelist.com

http://www.geocities.com/seawindtwo.geo/

1995 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:30pm

Subject: Westerbeke during the refit

Attachment 86k (image/jpeg) Westerbeke front detail copy.jpg

 

1996 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:32pm

Subject: Empty and very clean compartment

Attachment 431k (image/jpeg) Engine replacement 001.jpg

 

1997 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:34pm

Subject: Engine beds modified

Attachment 431k (image/jpeg) Engine replacement 002.jpg

 

1998 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:36pm

Subject: Tiny Yanmar

Attachment 410k (image/jpeg) Engine replacement 003.jpg

 

1999 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 8:10pm

Subject: Westerbeke to Yanmar

Today was one of those days that any ASW II owner prays for.

Much of the final installation work has been finalized.

The access is just incredible.

My mechanic, Pete, 5 foot 8", 160 pounds, crawled easily down the port side of the engine, installed the 1 Ĺ" Aqua-Lift muffler and a small CCA table it mounts upon, directly into the bilge, just below the after end of the transmission coupling. Aligned the engine in about ten minutes by quickly shifting his body around and over the engine almost effortlessly. Best, I am 6 foot 3" and I was able to easily get to the stuffing box with two hands for the very first time since 1991.

New shaft is 45 inches to the end of the taper and 47 inches overall. The prop now sits directly in the center of the aperture. THIS LEAVES ENOUGH ROOM FOR A BULLET ZINC. Mounting further aft of the deadwood offers less hub cavitation from the ASWís wide deadwood, thus a bit more power.

The original prop was reconditioned and installed temporarily while Iím awaiting the new one. The old 16 X 12, RH and the new is 17 X 12, RH and of the new "sail blade" design from Michigan Wheel ($435.00). This was specified by the dealer to consider the deadwood and is expected to produce 25% more thrust at speed. The computer calculates the boat speed, under power (cruise) to increase from, originally, 5.4 knots to 5.8 knots with less overall torque required.

The new 100 amp Ample Power alternator fits as if designed for the Yanmar. The "saddle" mounting fits perfectly in place of the stock 65 amp unit and the wiring has been set up to emulate the Yanmar so the Yanmar may be used as a spare. Cool, eh?

Its worth all of the money and effort just to be able to do that stuff!

Launching on Thursday....................... Hoorah!

Paul

Sea Quill

2000 From: Tom Lix <tomlix@hotmail.com>

Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:21am

Subject: Re: Westerbeke to Yanmar

Paul, thank you and congratulations. These pictures are most helpful and

encouraging. Iím curious if youíre going to leave engine access the same

as it originally was, or whether youíll be re-building somewhat differently

to gain better access.

Tom Lix

Relief #17

 

>From: Compass <witewake@o...>

>Reply-To: Allied_Seawind_II@yahoogroups.com

>To: Allied_Seawind_II@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [Allied_Seawind_II] Westerbeke to Yanmar

>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:10:58 -0400

>

>Today was one of those days that any ASW II owner prays for.

>

>Much of the final installation work has been finalized.

>

>The access is just incredible.

>

>My mechanic, Pete, 5 foot 8", 160 pounds, crawled easily down the port side

>of the engine, installed the 1 Ĺ" Aqua-Lift muffler and a small CCA table

>it mounts upon, directly into the bilge, just below the after end of the

>transmission coupling. Aligned the engine in about ten minutes by quickly

>shifting his body around and over the engine almost effortlessly. Best, I

>am 6 foot 3" and I was able to easily get to the stuffing box with two

>hands for the very first time since 1991.

>

>New shaft is 45 inches to the end of the taper and 47 inches overall. The

>prop now sits directly in the center of the aperture. THIS LEAVES ENOUGH

>ROOM FOR A BULLET ZINC. Mounting further aft of the deadwood offers less

>hub cavitation from the ASWís wide deadwood, thus a bit more power.

>

>The original prop was reconditioned and installed temporarily while Iím

>awaiting the new one. The old 16 X 12, RH and the new is 17 X 12, RH and of

>the new "sail blade" design from Michigan Wheel ($435.00). This was

>specified by the dealer to consider the deadwood and is expected to produce

>25% more thrust at speed. The computer calculates the boat speed, under

>power (cruise) to increase from, originally, 5.4 knots to 5.8 knots with

>less overall torque required.

>

>The new 100 amp Ample Power alternator fits as if designed for the Yanmar.

>The "saddle" mounting fits perfectly in place of the stock 65 amp unit and

>the wiring has been set up to emulate the Yanmar so the Yanmar may be used

>as a spare. Cool, eh?

>

>Its worth all of the money and effort just to be able to do that stuff!

>

>Launching on Thursday....................... Hoorah!

>

>Paul

>Sea Quill

 

 

 

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

2001 From: stpetescorer <rweaver@stpetescorer.com>

Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:56pm

Subject: Motor Mounts

I avoided removing the screws holding the motor mount when I replaced

the starter. I doubt the motor mount is ever held as securely after

the lag bolts have been removed and then re-tightened.

Dick Weaver SWIIK75

2002 From: James S <james4003@hotmail.com>

Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:11pm

Subject: Re: Tiny Yanmar

Paul,

She sure looks pretty!!!

James

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

2003 From: Lbyc1@aol.com

Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 3:11pm

Subject: Re: Tiny Yanmar

Beautiful . . .

I know you will like the the new Yanmar. I only wish I had installed Panacheís 3GM in Ď88 when purchased. Never thought you could craw on top on an engine in a Seawind II, did you?

Have you thought of a CAMBELL prop? Did so three years ago and am thoroughly impressed with the little beast.

Regards,

Gene N. Kohrman

Hull #60

2007 From: William Dunsmore <bpduns@msn.com>

Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:00pm

Subject: Westerbeke Starter

To All

Recently I remember a message about removing the starter without removing the motor mount. I neglected to save it, and now I need to remove my starter.

Please send it again.

Thanks

Bill Dunsmore " Fancy Free "

2008 From: Compass <witewake@optonline.net>

Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:51pm

Subject: Re: Westerbeke 30 Starter

Bill,

Disconnect both cables to the start battery..... FIRST

Actually the easiest way is simply to remove the two lag bolts holding the engine mount bracket from the stringer/bed and the two that pass through the starter. A few taps with a hammer will encourage the bracket and the mount to slide aft, intact. (Tie a string on it as the bilge gets very hungry just about then.) The engine will not fall but stay very stable.

Remove the last bolt from the starter and generally the starter will then need a stiff whack to break it free of the bell housing. I suggest removing the battery cable and the solenoid wires from the starter once it is clear of the engine and into the starboard lazarette, near the battery shelf.

After re-installing the starter the engine may need a slight lift with a well-placed 2 X 4 to slip the engine mount bracket back into position.

The whole job to remove takes about 30 minutes, a hammer and an elf. Installing; about an hour, two beers and three small Band-Aids.

Paul

Sea Quill

2009 From: stpetescorer <rweaver@stpetescorer.com>

Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:00am

Subject: Starter Removal

I am reluctant to remove the motor mount as I doubt that the motor mount will be held as securely when the lag bolts are re-inserted.

I was able to back off the adjusting nuts on the motor mount and then get the starter off. I would suggest that you have the starter held securely before removing the final bolt into the bell housing. I used a rope sling with one end leading up each cockpit locker to mizzen halyard winches, but any other way of securing it would be OK. The winches make for easy and slight adjustments of the sling.

If you remember how many turns you backed off the nuts, you can replace the engine in its proper position.

Dick Weaver SWII75K