Who picked Up the Baton?

1581 Feb 23, 2002
SWII owners,
One of my slip mates and a good friend likes to chide me about my boat, stating that it makes a good coastal cruiser but not a serious bluewater boat such as an Island Packet. He then asked why they didn�t make them anymore. I replied that Island Packet utilized aspects of the SW II design, making it relatively unattractive. Not to cast aspersions on Island Packet, mind you, I made that statement for effect in the argument. Come to think of it, we were dock walking one evening and there was an older Island Packet (a 37 I believe) and its lines reminded me a lot of my boat with its shear and all.

Today, I went to the IP website and found that they started building their boats in the early-80�s, about the time of the demise of the last Allied incarnation.

Did anyone ever pick up the baton so to speak, and build a boat based on the SWII under a different name?

I would be interested in your comments. Just for the record, the slip mate in question was my delivery captain and he really does have a respect for the SWII, he just likes to get my Irish up from time to time.

James, Niko (91)

1582 Feb 23, 2002

While IP has lots of boats out there, and seem to have a fair reputation, I wouldn�t trade my Seawind for an IP, even a bigger one. There are several issues of construction with the IP that make it a less desirable off shore boat than our Seawinds. The major one that comes to mind is that the chain plates are chemically bonded to the hull as opposed to mechanically attached. I will admit that I have not looked at an IP since about 1988, but at that time chainplates were still held in place by fiberglass strapping. Some other issues I had with IP were that there few handholds in the cabin, in a rough sea it would be hard to not get knocked into something. I did like the neat wiring and mechanical systems in the boat. I will also say that while anchored in a Caribbean port with an Island Packet anchored nearby, the owners of the IP came over and lusted after our Seawind. They felt that the IP was a second best choice and that they would have liked a SW - again their reasoning was strength of construction and seaworthiness. Now I know I am VERY VERY prejudiced towards our Seawind and that I believe there are few boats that meet the same high standard of seaworthiness and ability to deliver a crew from point A to point B in safety and comfort in this size range, so IP owners don�t give up someday you too could own a SW.

Sharon, Silver Spray # 101K

1590 Feb 24, 2002

James,

It seems to me that the oldest logarithm concerning time, speed and distance has more than navigational significance in your question.

Sailors today purchase boats from a pocketbook guarded by the family matriarch. Certainly fewer women today would opt for the relatively Spartan accommodations of the SW II over the opulence of the Island Packet. Fewer still find classic lines, offshore safety and affordable long-term cruising as important elements of the "real life" they must daily contend with. Weekending aboard, Thursday night racing for the crew and an annual vacation week of family cruising, to a value oriented family, extracts the very high price attached to each hour of enjoyment and maintenance with respect to the overall boating budget.

Nat Herreschoff, Phil Rhodes, Carl Alberg, Bill Luders Ted Brewer, Tom Gilmer and a host of other "sailors" made their noble living designing appealing boats to cruise, race and carry cargo. Few if any of their collective work will ever be considered anything less than "classic". The market they worked for has rapidly evolved from sailors and yachtsmen to the more recognizable, "recreational boater". The boat-builders have evolved into the manufacturers and they produce identical clones of computer generated technology for the "new" market. Faster, roomier, lighter and more accommodating. Certainly!

Better? It depends upon just who is answering....

It is we, the staunch traditionalists, who "maintain" the true baton however. We, the owners and sailors of traditional boats that were "built" rather than manufactured, the ones who first learned to "row a small boat" and find out something new each time we sail. We are the ones who clench that real baton. The baton is sailing ! The obligation is to pass on an art that is rapidly fading away is almost exclusively that of the traditionalist who still values time, speed and distance. To all of us, that familiar logarithmic solution is of immeasurable value, longevity.

Paul, Sea Quill # 29K

1592 Feb 24, 2002

Paul,

That piece you sent James was a wonderful piece of poetry and as I read it gave out a loud clear ring in my heart! Thanks for a wonderful piece at a time I needed it most.

Don Bundy

Aug 14, 2002
Differences between the Seawind II and the Allied Princess

Hello, all:

My friend Bill and I had the opportunity to sail on our first Allied boat last weekend. It was an Allied Princess. My question to the folks on this list is: To those of you who have seen and/or sailed on both boats, how does the Seawind II's smaller size make a difference in comparison to the Princess? What do you gain? The Princess' owner thought that the Seawind II was too small to have a ketch rig. I've read that criticism before. I have no opinion; the Princess was the first ketch that I have sailed on, so I have nothing to compare it. I must say that it was a lovely boat to sail. Bottom line: Tell me how and why, in your opinion, the Seawind II is a better boat than the Princess, I am definitely listening and would appreciate the input.

Aug 14, 2002
Differences between the Seawind II and the Allied Princess

Our dear friends had a Princess and we sailed many blue water miles with them. It amazed us that they had to reef the sails when we did not. Although the boats sail about equally and both are ketch rigged. The Princess heels a greater amount for the same wind velocity which also surprised us. I sailed it across the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas in 15 knots of wind,had to reef the main entirely. With the SWII, you could have all the sails flying in the same conditions.

The Princess has fuel tanks deep within the keel in a most in accessible area. Their fuel tank leaks and the bilge pumps fuel overboard. So they had it removed, very expensive, and now they little fuel capacity. The Seawind II has its fuel tank located in an area which is surrounded with air, easy to ensure no leaks exist and thus will not result in a corrosive environment the Princess fuel tanks had.

When it comes time to haul out and do the bottom work, the Seawind II is small enough to do it yourself. The Princess has more square feet, and thus 1/4 more work to do the bottom. Sales organizations don't want you to buy a smaller boat, less profit, but for myself and my wife who do our own work, and have owned a SW II for 15 years or more we prefer the smaller vessel for a few reasons. One, is my wife can reef, sail, trim,motor the 32. A 36 can be overpowering in strong winds. The differance is amazing. Try winching in a 150 jib on a 36, then try the same thing on a 32, you need a lot less muscle, so my wife can handle it alone on the 32'and so can I. We think this is a safety factor because when at sea one can get injured. We have crewed on many different vessels, all larger than the 32', and we keep coming back and thanking our 32' vessel. Some of the vessels we sailed long distances on are, Amel 43, Vagabond 42,Westsail 43, Hunter 33.5, Irwin 37, S2 36, Hunter 34.

At present, we are out of the water, doing the bottom after 5 years in the water and I'm most grateful its only 32' long. We also like a encapsulated keel, not a bolt on one. Bolt on keels have a propensity of coming loose in rough weather conditions, this I don't want to even think about.

Although we have been scared aboard our boat in rough seas, we have never wished to be on any other at that time. We know of the strong construction and sea worthiness of the SW II and believe in it.

Aug 15, 2002
Princess vs ASW II

It would be difficult to add much to the words I have just read.

I too have sailed a few times aboard a Princess in Long Island Sound and had once delivered a Choy lee Offshore 41 ketch, to St. Thomas, in tandem with a Princess in October of 1984.

Although the Princess sailed a bit closer to the wind than the notoriously sluggish Choy Lee, it was the tenderness and the almost alarming angle of heel that the Princess seemed most comfortable that I found alarming.

Some three or four days north of the island we had both encountered the "hard-side" effects of Hurricane Klaus for more than two days and later compared notes.... we aboard the Choy Lee had a considerably easier time with the encounter than had the three folks sailing the Princess.

It may actually say something more when I reveal the actual name of the Princess that we made this trip, "SideWays".

Aug 15, 2002
Allied princess vs Seawind II

I first paid attention to the name Allied when I read for the third time, Robin Lee Graham's circumnavigation book Dove. National Geographic bought him an Allied Luders 33. Since I was interested in getting a strong, seaworthy boat, I used "Allied" in the online boat search engines. Mind you that the only other names I was familiar with were Catalina, Ericson, Morgan, Hunter et al.

The Allied Princess was one that caught my eye, and I looked at one at a local brokerage. It was the first boat that had an interior that I liked and I was set on getting one.

Fortunately, an experienced boat mechanic and delivery captain told me that if I wanted an Allied, to get the Seawind II. My friend had sailed 11,000 miles on one and it was his favorite boat, perhaps barring the CSY 37 (roomier for a husband/wife liveaboard). I had my doubts since I would be living aboard (as a bachelor)for the next several years.

I found one called "Pickpocket" in Louisiana (I live in the Houston/Galveston area in south Texas)and liked the interior layout and the feel of the boat, but was more interested in Paul's boat since his was in the process of a refit. I eventually found Niko in Corpus Christi and have been happy with my purchase.

I know two people who own Princesses and they both have had problems with their fuel tanks. One of the boats is a cutter and the owner had to have some work down on the deck where the mast was stepped. Perhaps it was because bought his boat was one of the last to come out the factory before the company went under.

To cap off my note I have to say that my ownership of a Seawind II was the result of divine intervention.

Aug 15, 2002
Differences between the Seawind II and the Allied Princess

Thanks, Don and Brenda, for a well thought argument in favor of the smaller ketch. My position, etched through a year around the Atlantic including a dynamic fetch storm of 65kts wind and 40ft waves that lasted 36 hours on the way to the Azores, is all in favor, unles your program include a lot of windard work, not my favorite cruising plan: "gentlemen don't dail to weather" anyway!

While my Marine Lieutenant companion, a Beneteau 36 owner, quietly thought his last hour had come, as he told my wife once home, I was never anxious about ship and limb after the way she was lifting up in the waves, taking in the rogue ones that filled the cockpit every half hour or so, and gamely barrelling down the combers. A 40ft wave has some 80-100' down slope even when it breaks on top, you take a bit of time to run down that even at 8kts! it is exhilarating, but you get a bit tired after 30 hours of 1 on and 1hour of the helm, since the Windhunter windvane had long given up the ghost. I can't wait to test my Cape Horn in those conditions!

Aug 16, 2002
Differences between the Seawind II and the Allied Princess

In addition to my previous, based on the year offshore experience, I confess I was always dreaming of a "10m ketch" during my years of moving boats around the Med, entranced by their elegance and handiness. In the many calms that plague that sea, their scorpion-like silhouette on the horizon, with only a creamy mizzen up and not slatting, was a harbinger call, and I almost never bring down said mizzen when motoring.

Seawind IIK is a foot shorter than 10m, but with lots of storage room thanks to her wide, feminine beam, an important feature when going offshore for a while (a year in my case). I am still deeply in love, and my visiting French grandson, age 8, dreams of living on her and heading East for Azores and Gib...

And like them ladies, she likes to dress up, so my rainbow color mizzen staysail is putting as much joy in my heart as in hers. I have seen a Seawind I sporting a most interesting mule sail. All these attires are sadly impossible on a one-legged sloop or cutter. Be well, be ketch! Bert dF

Aug 16, 2002
Allied princess vs Seawind II

Thanks to all for the thoughtful and interesting replies on this topic. It has been extremely helpful for me to read your experiences and stories in regard to the two Allied boats. I also appreciate and look forward to the invitations that I have received to come and sail or tour on Seawind IIs. You are a really pleasant group of people who enjoy excellent boats.
Bon voyage

Aug 16, 2002
Differences between the Seawind II and the Allied Prince

Dear Birdpriestess...as a woman who frequently sailed alone in the past and will again in the future, my recommendation is the "smaller" Seawind II. While the Princess comes from the same yard as the Seawind and the designs appear similar, they were designed for entirely different purposes. The Seawind version 1 and then II were designed as offshore passage-makers. The Princess was designed as a strictly coastal cruiser. If you look at the specs for each boat you will see that the Seawind weighs more and has heavier layups than the Princess. The Seawind was designed as a simple boat to be shorthanded sailed (I am of the opinion that it needs to be kept that way if serious passage making is to be considered-all the "nice" things people add increase the need for more electrical capacity, provide the opportunity for greater time in port waiting for parts and repairing complicated refrigeration and electronics and electrical devices). My husband and I found it an adequate and certainly safe live-aboard regardless of geography. There was a Princess moored near us for many years, on days when we happily sailed away the owners remained in cockpit. While this may not be the fault of the boat, the report that I got from fellow sailors was that the Princess was a bit tender - this seems to be confirmed by the other reports from the other Seawind owners. While I may have a very strong bias towards our Seawind, in the 22 years of ownership, I have not seen another sailboat I would trader for to perform the same duty we ask of Silver Spray.

Good Sailing